Been banned from DPReview

biz-engineer · 07-08-2016, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by starbase218

Well, good luck with it, showing lots of scaled down images that prove nothing.

I know that. I also know that you are playing provocative, but that's ok, because I know that images are in focus, including zoomed in.

---------- Post added 08-07-16 at 21:32 ----------

Do you want me to crop all 70 images? 50% , 100% , 200% ?

starbase218 · 07-08-2016, 12:33 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I know that. I also know that you are playing provocative, but that's ok, because I know that images are in focus, including zoomed in.

---------- Post added 08-07-16 at 21:32 ----------

Do you want me to crop all 70 images? 50% , 100% , 200% ?

LOL, I am playing provocative? Right....

I'm outta here. Someone else, feel free to answer his question.

biz-engineer · 07-08-2016, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by starbase218

LOL, I am playing provocative? Right.... I'm outta here. Someone else, feel free to answer his question.

No you aren't being provocative. So, I ask you how do you want the crop to be. Tell me, I'll do it for you. Why are you leaving?

**Michaelina2** · 07-08-2016, 12:40 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

...I've been banned completely from DPReview....

Some consider this a badge of honor.

Add it to your resume and wear it with pride !

From the land of the free... M

Kunzite · 07-08-2016, 12:52 PM

Biz-engineer, thank you for your efforts. Perhaps you should select a few series and post 100% crops? It wouldn't stop the critics though, nor would it convince DPReview.

Fat Albert · 07-08-2016, 01:09 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

No you aren't being provocative. So, I ask you how do you want the crop to be. Tell me, I'll do it for you. Why are you leaving?

Don't waste your breath with him. Thank you for taking the time to test and post these shots!

bwDraco · 07-08-2016, 01:24 PM

Again, I'm of the opinion that a defective camera (or lens or firmware) is to blame here.

My Pentax K-3 II has absolutely no trouble with these sorts of scenarios.

Draco

jake14mw · 07-08-2016, 01:29 PM - **2 Likes**

Everyone is getting so emotional here. I have used Pentax for a long time and I've been satisfied, but I don't make excuses for them either. I'm just trying to get a real understanding of the AF-C performance of the K-1. From what I have read in this forum over the past couple of months, my overall impression of the AF performance of K-1 is that is has taken another step forward, but no great advancements have been made to get close to the AF-C performance of the better Nikons and Canons. The DpReview review of the K-1 seems to paint a very poor picture of the performance. I'm just trying to get a true picture. It seems that biz-engineer has tried to make a good faith attempt at performing a test close to what dpreview did. I appreciate that.

---------- Post added 07-08-16 at 04:39 PM ----------

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

I sure don't understand these bicycle tests for AF image focusing tests.

I shoot birds in flight traveling over 50mph, and barefoot water skiers going by at 45mph. What's the challenge about shooting a person on a bicycle traveling at 5mph? Just does not seem like much of an AF test to me. I don't get it?

The reason bicycle tests are being posted is because that is what dpreview uses for a test of AF-C autofocus. I'm guessing they chose that so that it can be used to test all cameras, not just the ones designed for sports and action shooting. If it's too tough of a test, then all but the best cameras would fail miserably. It seems like a very reasonable test scenario to me.

mecrox · 07-08-2016, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

I don't think it is intentional bias, I think it is Confirmation Bias. They know how their familiar cameras work and how to make them produce a desired result. When the familiar brand issues a new product it confirms their familiarit assumption. When an unfamiliar brand issues a new product which achieves a similar end result by a different means - their unfamiliarity assumption is confirmed.

Familiar = Superior
Unfamiliar = Inferior
Result = Unmeasured

An excellent point that probably gets to the heart of it. The DPR crew strike me as Canikony-centric and in some cases seem to think the sun shines out if it. They are not so familiar with Pentax equipment, among others (Oly, Panny ...) but they think they are. Anyway, I usually find there are more helpful reviews on other sites and their forums can resemble a bar-room brawl.

Kunzite · 07-08-2016, 01:45 PM

On the other forums, sequences used to exemplify that the K-1 can do AF-C were rejected because they weren't bikes. For example, race cars were considered easier to track.

**monochrome** · 07-08-2016, 01:45 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by jake14mw

Everyone is getting so emotional here. I have used Pentax for a long time and I've been satisfied, but I don't make excuses for them either. I'm just trying to get a real understanding of the AF-C performance of the K-1. From what I have read in this forum over the past couple of months, my overall impression of the AF performance of K-1 is that is has taken another step forward, but no great advancements have been made to get close to the AF-C performance of the better Nikons and Canons. The DpReview review of the K-1 seems to paint a very poor picture of the performance. I'm just trying to get a true picture. It seems that biz-engineer has tried to make a good faith attempt at performing a test close to what dpreview did. I appreciate that.

My experience with K-1 and various FA and D-FA lenses is the tracking AF can be used successfully if the camera is properly set up (AF-C 9-SEL, Medium Hold) and the user assists the camera by actually moving the AF frame to keep the subject covered by the AF points. The camera apparently won't decide what to do on its own as well some other brand cameras are said to. If I move the camera to keep the subject centered I do fine, I feel.

There are fewer AF points and fewer cross-type, f/2.8 points than Nikon and they're concentrated inside the crop frame, so a fast f/2.8 zoom will be finicky at open aperture, but it can be managed. The tracking algorithm is a generation old, which means a few years ago a similar algo was cutting edge. AF-S, contrary to DPR, is snappy enough for a field camera, and accurate. There's no PDAF face or eye sensing, but that's a new feature of AF.

IMHO they set up a straw man at DPR. They ran action tracking tests which they knew K-1 would fail, failed it, then said the entire AF is Poor.

That conclusion is not supported, and they're retracting it one small edit at a time.

Depending on your use case K-1 AF is either competent or unsatisfactory.

biz-engineer · 07-08-2016, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Depending on your use case K-1 AF is either competent or unsatisfactory.

I learn by trying to redo DPR test. The result can be extremely variable. Is the distance of the bike constant for every test run? Is the speed of the bike the same every time? I mean, in order to know how different are D750 and K1, you'd need to shoot the same target at the same time, with similar settings and same position of the AF point. Using one camera one day doing a test run, and coming to "poor af" conclusion is very subjective. "poor AF" is vague statement, technically does not mean much , but for sure it sounds bad.

Fat Albert · 07-08-2016, 02:33 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

"poor AF" is vague statement, technically does not mean much , but for sure it sounds bad.

It hasn't taken much to poison the well, unfortunately. They can retract and rewrite, but the damage is done--and those hacks know it.

CDW · 07-08-2016, 02:35 PM

I worked for many years in the extreme high end audio industry for an American audio conglomerate that is the corporate parent for a number of name brands. I know from experience how positive reviews are generated and the political games played based on advertising commitments. Amazon is the parent company of DPR and Amazon is able to play hardball, if they choose. Who knows what goes on in spite of DPR assurances otherwise.

The fact is the K1 will more than adequately focus for 99% of people owning it. Richi's comment that he owned a 10 year old body that focuses quicker than the K1 is likely BS. I've owned my share of Canons in the past that were no more and sometimes less capable than the K1 in that respect.

Simply put, in my opinion in terms of delivered image quality, it is now the top dog in the landscape arena. I have two friends both of whom have sold their a7rIIs for the K1 (one also owns a 645z and used his SONY as a backup) and the other was a first time Pentax buyer. He also had a collection of SONY and Nikons, had never previously owned a Pentax. He's now putting the rest on eBay and has purchased a K3II to go along with his K1.

K1 performance is solid enough that regardless of DPR comments, there are too many other credible sites that find AF qualities more than adequate. Regardless of some attempts to undermine Pentax, I think the K1 is going to have a great run.

volosong · 07-08-2016, 02:53 PM

Since Ron died the other week, (brandrx), there is no longer any good reason to visit DPR.

07-08-2016, 12:35 PM	#93
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by starbase218 LOL, I am playing provocative? Right.... I'm outta here. Someone else, feel free to answer his question. No you aren't being provocative. So, I ask you how do you want the crop to be. Tell me, I'll do it for you. Why are you leaving? Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-08-2016 at 12:49 PM.

07-08-2016, 01:45 PM - 1 Like	#101
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by jake14mw Everyone is getting so emotional here. I have used Pentax for a long time and I've been satisfied, but I don't make excuses for them either. I'm just trying to get a real understanding of the AF-C performance of the K-1. From what I have read in this forum over the past couple of months, my overall impression of the AF performance of K-1 is that is has taken another step forward, but no great advancements have been made to get close to the AF-C performance of the better Nikons and Canons. The DpReview review of the K-1 seems to paint a very poor picture of the performance. I'm just trying to get a true picture. It seems that biz-engineer has tried to make a good faith attempt at performing a test close to what dpreview did. I appreciate that. My experience with K-1 and various FA and D-FA lenses is the tracking AF can be used successfully if the camera is properly set up (AF-C 9-SEL, Medium Hold) and the user assists the camera by actually moving the AF frame to keep the subject covered by the AF points. The camera apparently won't decide what to do on its own as well some other brand cameras are said to. If I move the camera to keep the subject centered I do fine, I feel. There are fewer AF points and fewer cross-type, f/2.8 points than Nikon and they're concentrated inside the crop frame, so a fast f/2.8 zoom will be finicky at open aperture, but it can be managed. The tracking algorithm is a generation old, which means a few years ago a similar algo was cutting edge. AF-S, contrary to DPR, is snappy enough for a field camera, and accurate. There's no PDAF face or eye sensing, but that's a new feature of AF. IMHO they set up a straw man at DPR. They ran action tracking tests which they knew K-1 would fail, failed it, then said the entire AF is Poor. That conclusion is not supported, and they're retracting it one small edit at a time. Depending on your use case K-1 AF is either competent or unsatisfactory. Last edited by monochrome; 07-08-2016 at 01:50 PM.

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07-08-2016, 12:29 PM	#91
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by starbase218 Well, good luck with it, showing lots of scaled down images that prove nothing. I know that. I also know that you are playing provocative, but that's ok, because I know that images are in focus, including zoomed in. ---------- Post added 08-07-16 at 21:32 ---------- Do you want me to crop all 70 images? 50% , 100% , 200% ?

07-08-2016, 12:33 PM - 1 Like	#92
starbase218 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe Posts: 1,119	Originally posted by biz-engineer I know that. I also know that you are playing provocative, but that's ok, because I know that images are in focus, including zoomed in. ---------- Post added 08-07-16 at 21:32 ---------- Do you want me to crop all 70 images? 50% , 100% , 200% ? LOL, I am playing provocative? Right.... I'm outta here. Someone else, feel free to answer his question.

07-08-2016, 12:40 PM - 1 Like	#94
Michaelina2 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SE Michigan USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,300	Originally posted by biz-engineer ...I've been banned completely from DPReview.... Some consider this a badge of honor. Add it to your resume and wear it with pride ! From the land of the free... M

07-08-2016, 12:52 PM	#95
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Biz-engineer, thank you for your efforts. Perhaps you should select a few series and post 100% crops? It wouldn't stop the critics though, nor would it convince DPReview.

07-08-2016, 01:09 PM - 1 Like	#96
Fat Albert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 966	Originally posted by biz-engineer No you aren't being provocative. So, I ask you how do you want the crop to be. Tell me, I'll do it for you. Why are you leaving? Don't waste your breath with him. Thank you for taking the time to test and post these shots!

07-08-2016, 01:24 PM	#97
bwDraco Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York Photos: Albums Posts: 1,071	Again, I'm of the opinion that a defective camera (or lens or firmware) is to blame here. My Pentax K-3 II has absolutely no trouble with these sorts of scenarios. Draco

07-08-2016, 01:29 PM - 2 Likes	#98
jake14mw Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Connecticut, USA Posts: 977	Everyone is getting so emotional here. I have used Pentax for a long time and I've been satisfied, but I don't make excuses for them either. I'm just trying to get a real understanding of the AF-C performance of the K-1. From what I have read in this forum over the past couple of months, my overall impression of the AF performance of K-1 is that is has taken another step forward, but no great advancements have been made to get close to the AF-C performance of the better Nikons and Canons. The DpReview review of the K-1 seems to paint a very poor picture of the performance. I'm just trying to get a true picture. It seems that biz-engineer has tried to make a good faith attempt at performing a test close to what dpreview did. I appreciate that. ---------- Post added 07-08-16 at 04:39 PM ---------- Originally posted by Fenwoodian I sure don't understand these bicycle tests for AF image focusing tests. I shoot birds in flight traveling over 50mph, and barefoot water skiers going by at 45mph. What's the challenge about shooting a person on a bicycle traveling at 5mph? Just does not seem like much of an AF test to me. I don't get it? The reason bicycle tests are being posted is because that is what dpreview uses for a test of AF-C autofocus. I'm guessing they chose that so that it can be used to test all cameras, not just the ones designed for sports and action shooting. If it's too tough of a test, then all but the best cameras would fail miserably. It seems like a very reasonable test scenario to me.

07-08-2016, 01:44 PM	#99
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by monochrome I don't think it is intentional bias, I think it is Confirmation Bias. They know how their familiar cameras work and how to make them produce a desired result. When the familiar brand issues a new product it confirms their familiarit assumption. When an unfamiliar brand issues a new product which achieves a similar end result by a different means - their unfamiliarity assumption is confirmed. Familiar = Superior Unfamiliar = Inferior Result = Unmeasured An excellent point that probably gets to the heart of it. The DPR crew strike me as Canikony-centric and in some cases seem to think the sun shines out if it. They are not so familiar with Pentax equipment, among others (Oly, Panny ...) but they think they are. Anyway, I usually find there are more helpful reviews on other sites and their forums can resemble a bar-room brawl.

07-08-2016, 01:45 PM	#100
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	On the other forums, sequences used to exemplify that the K-1 can do AF-C were rejected because they weren't bikes. For example, race cars were considered easier to track.

07-08-2016, 02:20 PM	#102
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Originally posted by monochrome Depending on your use case K-1 AF is either competent or unsatisfactory. I learn by trying to redo DPR test. The result can be extremely variable. Is the distance of the bike constant for every test run? Is the speed of the bike the same every time? I mean, in order to know how different are D750 and K1, you'd need to shoot the same target at the same time, with similar settings and same position of the AF point. Using one camera one day doing a test run, and coming to "poor af" conclusion is very subjective. "poor AF" is vague statement, technically does not mean much , but for sure it sounds bad.

07-08-2016, 02:33 PM - 1 Like	#103
Fat Albert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 966	Originally posted by biz-engineer "poor AF" is vague statement, technically does not mean much , but for sure it sounds bad. It hasn't taken much to poison the well, unfortunately. They can retract and rewrite, but the damage is done--and those hacks know it.

07-08-2016, 02:35 PM	#104
CDW Site Supporter Join Date: May 2011 Location: Big Island, Hawaii & Utah Posts: 457	I worked for many years in the extreme high end audio industry for an American audio conglomerate that is the corporate parent for a number of name brands. I know from experience how positive reviews are generated and the political games played based on advertising commitments. Amazon is the parent company of DPR and Amazon is able to play hardball, if they choose. Who knows what goes on in spite of DPR assurances otherwise. The fact is the K1 will more than adequately focus for 99% of people owning it. Richi's comment that he owned a 10 year old body that focuses quicker than the K1 is likely BS. I've owned my share of Canons in the past that were no more and sometimes less capable than the K1 in that respect. Simply put, in my opinion in terms of delivered image quality, it is now the top dog in the landscape arena. I have two friends both of whom have sold their a7rIIs for the K1 (one also owns a 645z and used his SONY as a backup) and the other was a first time Pentax buyer. He also had a collection of SONY and Nikons, had never previously owned a Pentax. He's now putting the rest on eBay and has purchased a K3II to go along with his K1. K1 performance is solid enough that regardless of DPR comments, there are too many other credible sites that find AF qualities more than adequate. Regardless of some attempts to undermine Pentax, I think the K1 is going to have a great run.

07-08-2016, 02:53 PM	#105
volosong Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 696	Since Ron died the other week, (brandrx), there is no longer any good reason to visit DPR.