How does Pentax UK fix the retail price so effectively?

peterh337 · 10-20-2016, 11:12 AM

I am aware of the pros and cons of discounting, but this is slightly spooky.

Presumably they have a way to terminate an outlet which discounts.

SRS used to do that years ago but now they are an official dealer too.

Adam · 10-20-2016, 11:20 AM

Yeah, if you violate pricing terms you can be dropped or suspended as an authorized dealer.

RonHendriks1966 · 10-20-2016, 11:20 AM

Overhere for some years now the same prices everywhere. The pond sterling is really cheap.

**BigMackCam** · 10-20-2016, 11:26 AM

The K-1 has only been out for a few months and there is plenty of demand at this revised RRP. Ricoh will want to keep it that way, and will undoubtedly expect its authorised dealers to stick to official retail price until demand starts to settle down a little...

peterh337 · 10-20-2016, 11:30 AM

That, however, is (I believe) illegal and has been for decades.

So I wonder how it is done.

I know how it is done in the business I am in (electronics): you terminate the distributor's privileges e.g. stock protection.

**BigMackCam** · 10-20-2016, 11:39 AM

It is indeed illegal to fix the price retailers can charge. It falls - I think - under UK / EU Competition Law. But I suspect you're right; there will be some sort of round-about way or ways of achieving the same end result. For what it's worth, you can see the same thing happening with new models from Nikon, Fujifilm, Olympus etc....

Adam · 10-20-2016, 11:42 AM

It's funny how it can be illegal yet widely used, but I think it's a good thing. It allows stores to stay in business and also focus on good customer service. Deals will still come as they come, but usually across the board. In the US there are some periods where MAP is dropped, namely black Friday, allowing stores to offload excess stock and compete a little on deals.

Adam
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mohb · 10-20-2016, 11:50 AM

If the retailers can sell any k1s they can get their hands on why sell at a discount?

peterh337 · 10-20-2016, 01:20 PM

One discounts to sell more than the competition

I don't think all retailers sell all they can sell, by a very long way. My local shop has had a K1 on the shelf for months. Another retailer claims to have sold 300 of them, but would not say if they are v1.3 firmware i.e. latest stock. Both sell at the same RRP.

But competition is bad for business. It erodes margins, cuts away funds for R&D, warranty support, etc. Hence we have price maintenance.

The internet has brought us a lot of discounting, which brought the danger of a near total loss of all retailers, because their overheads are bigger. And people would go into a shop to check something out and then they would buy it online

That still goes on all the time in the clothing business, where price maintenance has failed to work. So the manufacturers have moved to prevent this, by offering price support to physical retailers and by screwing the purely online ones.

But the consumer pays for all this...

What surprises me is how grey importers have been brought into line. One well known firm had to offer their own warranty. I bought a K100 from them, well below the then RRP. Now they are an official dealer.

It is possible the grey importers found business shrinking due to the lack of warranty on grey imports, but I doubt that.

leekil · 10-20-2016, 01:24 PM

In the US, I understand that Apple has some sort of price requirements/restrictions on their dealers selling their products. The way stores get around it to be competitive is that they bundle other items with the computer (like RAM, or an external drive) so you might be paying the same, but you get more with it. Maybe it is similar with Pentax, given that often B&H seems to offer a camera bundle including something like lenses, flash, grip, or SD cards. Not sure if this applies to the UK, as it seems there are more stringent regulations around commercial practices there.

peterh337 · 10-20-2016, 02:37 PM

Here, lots of things "work" because they are below the radar.

Big visible stuff, like car pricing, attract top level attention, so the various disreputable practices (e.g. no warranty unless using the factory dealer) have been stopped many years ago.

But cameras is one of 10,000 little areas, and probably by the time the consumer watchdog gets around to chasing after say K1 price fixing (which, let's face it is blindingly obvious) the K1 is 5 models old

And how many camera models are there?

victormeldrew · 10-20-2016, 04:36 PM

Yeah...they aren't fixing the price - that, as you say, would be naughty naughty.
They're just saying to retailers that they need to sell at a minimum price to remain an authorised stockist. They need to be an authorised stockist to get hold of stock right now. And to keep themselves on the Pentax site, and keep the natty sign on their window. They are free to choose to do otherwise and source non-existant stock from elsewhere.
That is all...nothing to see here, officer.

Once the hype has died down, the minimum price will drop and some retailers will follow and others won't and then there will be 'competition' of sorts.

Save

Blue · 10-20-2016, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Adam

It's funny how it can be illegal yet widely used, but I think it's a good thing. It allows stores to stay in business and also focus on good customer service. Deals will still come as they come, but usually across the board. In the US there are some periods where MAP is dropped, namely black Friday, allowing stores to offload excess stock and compete a little on deals.

I hope so because the K-1 went up over $200 since its release.

fredralphfred · 10-20-2016, 11:47 PM

I'm a little surprised at this discussion. MAP is widely practiced in the US, and fairly widely accepted. Most products from most major electronic brands have a MAP, and a dealer risks being "not a dealer any more" if they advertise products for less than that. The manufacturer has no control over the actual sale price, but with on-line sales, it's easiest just to go along with it. Occasionally, you'll see some retailer ask you to e-mail them or use some sort of mechanism to "reveal" the "real" price on the item once it's in your cart, but usually not on every item they stock. They like money, too.

Also, again in the US, don't forget why nobody carries Pentax -- they didn't use to care about MAP at all, so no one but large, aggressive on-line retailers carried them. That hurt them because Joe or Roger or Judy (?) couldn't see their products when they went to "the" camera store in town, so they would never even consider Pentax.

Sorry -- MAP is Minimum Advertised Price.

beholder3 · 10-21-2016, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by peterh337

I am aware of the pros and cons of discounting, but this is slightly spooky.
Presumably they have a way to terminate an outlet which discounts.
SRS used to do that years ago but now they are an official dealer too.

It is a ghost actually, since there definitely is no price fixing in the UK by Pentax.

I bought more than one Pentax DFA lens exactly at SRS just because they had offers far below the prices in my country, e.g. 600 EUR less than current street price.

I'd actually say that SRS is the colorful example of a dealer who deviates a lot from standard price levels (during their special offer timeframes, which are frequent enough).

10-20-2016, 11:12 AM	#1
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573	How does Pentax UK fix the retail price so effectively? I am aware of the pros and cons of discounting, but this is slightly spooky. Presumably they have a way to terminate an outlet which discounts. SRS used to do that years ago but now they are an official dealer too.

10-20-2016, 11:20 AM	#2
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	Yeah, if you violate pricing terms you can be dropped or suspended as an authorized dealer. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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10-20-2016, 11:20 AM	#3
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Overhere for some years now the same prices everywhere. The pond sterling is really cheap.

10-20-2016, 11:26 AM	#4
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,672	The K-1 has only been out for a few months and there is plenty of demand at this revised RRP. Ricoh will want to keep it that way, and will undoubtedly expect its authorised dealers to stick to official retail price until demand starts to settle down a little...

10-20-2016, 11:30 AM	#5
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	That, however, is (I believe) illegal and has been for decades. So I wonder how it is done. I know how it is done in the business I am in (electronics): you terminate the distributor's privileges e.g. stock protection.

10-20-2016, 11:39 AM	#6
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,672	It is indeed illegal to fix the price retailers can charge. It falls - I think - under UK / EU Competition Law. But I suspect you're right; there will be some sort of round-about way or ways of achieving the same end result. For what it's worth, you can see the same thing happening with new models from Nikon, Fujifilm, Olympus etc....

10-20-2016, 11:42 AM	#7
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	It's funny how it can be illegal yet widely used, but I think it's a good thing. It allows stores to stay in business and also focus on good customer service. Deals will still come as they come, but usually across the board. In the US there are some periods where MAP is dropped, namely black Friday, allowing stores to offload excess stock and compete a little on deals. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

10-20-2016, 11:50 AM	#8
mohb Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,912	If the retailers can sell any k1s they can get their hands on why sell at a discount?

10-20-2016, 01:20 PM	#9
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	One discounts to sell more than the competition I don't think all retailers sell all they can sell, by a very long way. My local shop has had a K1 on the shelf for months. Another retailer claims to have sold 300 of them, but would not say if they are v1.3 firmware i.e. latest stock. Both sell at the same RRP. But competition is bad for business. It erodes margins, cuts away funds for R&D, warranty support, etc. Hence we have price maintenance. The internet has brought us a lot of discounting, which brought the danger of a near total loss of all retailers, because their overheads are bigger. And people would go into a shop to check something out and then they would buy it online That still goes on all the time in the clothing business, where price maintenance has failed to work. So the manufacturers have moved to prevent this, by offering price support to physical retailers and by screwing the purely online ones. But the consumer pays for all this... What surprises me is how grey importers have been brought into line. One well known firm had to offer their own warranty. I bought a K100 from them, well below the then RRP. Now they are an official dealer. It is possible the grey importers found business shrinking due to the lack of warranty on grey imports, but I doubt that.

10-20-2016, 01:24 PM	#10
leekil Pentaxian Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 2,003	In the US, I understand that Apple has some sort of price requirements/restrictions on their dealers selling their products. The way stores get around it to be competitive is that they bundle other items with the computer (like RAM, or an external drive) so you might be paying the same, but you get more with it. Maybe it is similar with Pentax, given that often B&H seems to offer a camera bundle including something like lenses, flash, grip, or SD cards. Not sure if this applies to the UK, as it seems there are more stringent regulations around commercial practices there.

10-20-2016, 02:37 PM	#11
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	Here, lots of things "work" because they are below the radar. Big visible stuff, like car pricing, attract top level attention, so the various disreputable practices (e.g. no warranty unless using the factory dealer) have been stopped many years ago. But cameras is one of 10,000 little areas, and probably by the time the consumer watchdog gets around to chasing after say K1 price fixing (which, let's face it is blindingly obvious) the K1 is 5 models old And how many camera models are there?

10-20-2016, 04:36 PM	#12
victormeldrew Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: South West UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,493	Yeah...they aren't fixing the price - that, as you say, would be naughty naughty. They're just saying to retailers that they need to sell at a minimum price to remain an authorised stockist. They need to be an authorised stockist to get hold of stock right now. And to keep themselves on the Pentax site, and keep the natty sign on their window. They are free to choose to do otherwise and source non-existant stock from elsewhere. That is all...nothing to see here, officer. Once the hype has died down, the minimum price will drop and some retailers will follow and others won't and then there will be 'competition' of sorts. Save

10-20-2016, 06:05 PM	#13
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Adam It's funny how it can be illegal yet widely used, but I think it's a good thing. It allows stores to stay in business and also focus on good customer service. Deals will still come as they come, but usually across the board. In the US there are some periods where MAP is dropped, namely black Friday, allowing stores to offload excess stock and compete a little on deals. I hope so because the K-1 went up over $200 since its release.

10-20-2016, 11:47 PM	#14
fredralphfred Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Orting, WA Posts: 252	I'm a little surprised at this discussion. MAP is widely practiced in the US, and fairly widely accepted. Most products from most major electronic brands have a MAP, and a dealer risks being "not a dealer any more" if they advertise products for less than that. The manufacturer has no control over the actual sale price, but with on-line sales, it's easiest just to go along with it. Occasionally, you'll see some retailer ask you to e-mail them or use some sort of mechanism to "reveal" the "real" price on the item once it's in your cart, but usually not on every item they stock. They like money, too. Also, again in the US, don't forget why nobody carries Pentax -- they didn't use to care about MAP at all, so no one but large, aggressive on-line retailers carried them. That hurt them because Joe or Roger or Judy (?) couldn't see their products when they went to "the" camera store in town, so they would never even consider Pentax. Sorry -- MAP is Minimum Advertised Price.

10-21-2016, 09:47 AM	#15
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by peterh337 I am aware of the pros and cons of discounting, but this is slightly spooky. Presumably they have a way to terminate an outlet which discounts. SRS used to do that years ago but now they are an official dealer too. It is a ghost actually, since there definitely is no price fixing in the UK by Pentax. I bought more than one Pentax DFA lens exactly at SRS just because they had offers far below the prices in my country, e.g. 600 EUR less than current street price. I'd actually say that SRS is the colorful example of a dealer who deviates a lot from standard price levels (during their special offer timeframes, which are frequent enough).