Electronic First Curtain... when not to use

jcdoss · 12-21-2016, 11:00 AM

I discovered this weekend that fluorescent lighting is not friendly to ECFS on the K-1. This is due to the imperceptible flickering of fluorescent lights and the non-uniform activation of different parts of the sensor while using ECFS... you end up with fairly striking bands. This does not occur if using the optical viewfinder, or if using live view with ECFS disabled.

**lithedreamer** · 12-21-2016, 11:03 AM

I recall reading a warning about fluorescent lighting and EFCS in the firmware addendum to the manual...

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/digital/pdf/K-1_Ver.1.30_Deta...d_features.pdf

*The flicker of fluorescent lamp or heavy movement of the subject may cause
the corrupt image.

biz-engineer · 12-21-2016, 11:52 AM

Good point. According to what I've read about the A7RII sensor, for instance, EFCS mode does scan (sequential) of the sensor from top to bottom and it is significantly slower than its mechanical shutter (different parts of the image aren't captured at the same time. That means EFCS is really for use with subjects and lighting suitable for slow shutter speeds, i.e static subjects and constant lighting intensity.

joostdh · 12-21-2016, 12:07 PM

You can get weird distortion effects when panning and using EFCS.

amoringello · 12-21-2016, 02:14 PM

You also cannot use flash in Live View with EFCS enabled. I spent a night photographing an event and couldn't figure out why flash never worked in Live View.
Wasn't until the ride home afterwards that I remembered I was testing EFCS a few days earlier, apparently left it on, and that the docs say that was a side effect.

DimC · 12-21-2016, 02:35 PM

Well, that's funny I was about to post something about the first picture below.
1/125s, f2,8, ISO3200

Shot with EFCS enabled, there is a strong banding (it was ok until ISO800).
I tried ISO100 and there is no banding or artefacts, as far as I see, in the image.

Is this the same problem that you guys are talking about the EFCS under Fluorescent lights ?

At least I hope it's not my sensor having some kind of defaults.
Second image is ISO100, f4 instead of f2,8 and 0,5sec.

****

Well by re reading your post I think the issue is with the shutter speed, not ISO (even if it's related in my pictures).
The second image taken at 0,5sec, the EFCS had time to run the sensor.

amoringello · 12-21-2016, 05:01 PM

Are the lights in the background LED, or perhaps using LED for lighting? (if not using fluorescent lights)
I would suspect the same can occur with LED lights. Especially cheap ones like Christmas lights -- they flash quickly.
Shoot even with normal shutter over 1/1000s and you may see some of the lights appear dark.
More expensive lights, like those for photography do not flash.

**clackers** · 12-21-2016, 07:26 PM

Remember, EFCS doesn't work with SR either.

There are lots of caveats to electronic shutters, so a camera that doesn't have a mechanical shutter (like many P&S) is undesirable, IMHO.

jcdoss · 12-21-2016, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Remember, EFCS doesn't work with SR either....

Do you know whether SR is disabled when EFCS is active?

**lithedreamer** · 12-21-2016, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by jcdoss

Do you know whether SR is disabled when EFCS is active?

*The Shake Reduction function is fixed to OFF.

Again, according to the addendum to the manual:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/digital/pdf/K-1_Ver.1.30_Deta...d_features.pdf

Medex · 12-21-2016, 11:39 PM

up to 1/100s EFCS is OK even in fluorescent lighting

**clackers** · 12-22-2016, 12:32 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by jcdoss

Do you know whether SR is disabled when EFCS is active?

Yep, we don't get a choice in the matter, JC!

DimC · 12-22-2016, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by amoringello

Are the lights in the background LED, or perhaps using LED for lighting? (if not using fluorescent lights)
I would suspect the same can occur with LED lights. Especially cheap ones like Christmas lights -- they flash quickly.
Shoot even with normal shutter over 1/1000s and you may see some of the lights appear dark.
More expensive lights, like those for photography do not flash.

I shot this one in my studio with Lastolite regular flash strobes, but at the same time I'm using the cheap LED Christmas lights you see in the background.
Camera was on a tripod with 2 seconds delay and EFCS on as a testing purpose.
Îve shot same scene with EFCS off and it was good, no funky behavior 😀.

Îve shot a few landscapes with EFCS on and didn't notice any issue, nor did I notice any improvement to be honest.

amoringello · 12-24-2016, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by DimC

I shot this one in my studio with Lastolite regular flash strobes, but at the same time I'm using the cheap LED Christmas lights you see in the background.
Camera was on a tripod with 2 seconds delay and EFCS on as a testing purpose.
Îve shot same scene with EFCS off and it was good, no funky behavior 😀.

Îve shot a few landscapes with EFCS on and didn't notice any issue, nor did I notice any improvement to be honest.

I thought they might be but difficult to tell. :-)
It would be interesting to try the same scene, but with the LEDs turned off, and see if that has any positive effect on the color banding.

klaus123 · 12-26-2016, 11:45 AM

I found another negative effect: For short exposure times the rolling shutter effect is much worst than using mechanical shutter.

Take pictures out of the sinde window of d driving vehicle and look to vertical elements like lamp posts:
Here is a link toa german forum showing some picture examples: K1: Rolling Shutter

12-21-2016, 11:00 AM	#1
jcdoss Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Ingelheim am Rhein, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,760	Electronic First Curtain... when not to use I discovered this weekend that fluorescent lighting is not friendly to ECFS on the K-1. This is due to the imperceptible flickering of fluorescent lights and the non-uniform activation of different parts of the sensor while using ECFS... you end up with fairly striking bands. This does not occur if using the optical viewfinder, or if using live view with ECFS disabled.

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12-21-2016, 11:03 AM	#2
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	I recall reading a warning about fluorescent lighting and EFCS in the firmware addendum to the manual... http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/digital/pdf/K-1_Ver.1.30_Deta...d_features.pdf *The flicker of fluorescent lamp or heavy movement of the subject may cause the corrupt image.

12-21-2016, 11:52 AM	#3
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225	Good point. According to what I've read about the A7RII sensor, for instance, EFCS mode does scan (sequential) of the sensor from top to bottom and it is significantly slower than its mechanical shutter (different parts of the image aren't captured at the same time. That means EFCS is really for use with subjects and lighting suitable for slow shutter speeds, i.e static subjects and constant lighting intensity.

12-21-2016, 12:07 PM	#4
joostdh Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Netherlands Posts: 31	You can get weird distortion effects when panning and using EFCS.

12-21-2016, 02:14 PM	#5
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562	You also cannot use flash in Live View with EFCS enabled. I spent a night photographing an event and couldn't figure out why flash never worked in Live View. Wasn't until the ride home afterwards that I remembered I was testing EFCS a few days earlier, apparently left it on, and that the docs say that was a side effect.

12-21-2016, 05:01 PM	#7
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562	Are the lights in the background LED, or perhaps using LED for lighting? (if not using fluorescent lights) I would suspect the same can occur with LED lights. Especially cheap ones like Christmas lights -- they flash quickly. Shoot even with normal shutter over 1/1000s and you may see some of the lights appear dark. More expensive lights, like those for photography do not flash.

12-21-2016, 07:26 PM	#8
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Remember, EFCS doesn't work with SR either. There are lots of caveats to electronic shutters, so a camera that doesn't have a mechanical shutter (like many P&S) is undesirable, IMHO.

12-21-2016, 09:46 PM	#9
jcdoss Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Ingelheim am Rhein, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,760 Original Poster	Originally posted by clackers Remember, EFCS doesn't work with SR either.... Do you know whether SR is disabled when EFCS is active?

12-21-2016, 09:53 PM	#10
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	Originally posted by jcdoss Do you know whether SR is disabled when EFCS is active? *The Shake Reduction function is fixed to OFF. Again, according to the addendum to the manual: http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/digital/pdf/K-1_Ver.1.30_Deta...d_features.pdf

12-21-2016, 11:39 PM	#11
Medex Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Vilnius Posts: 1,020	up to 1/100s EFCS is OK even in fluorescent lighting

12-22-2016, 12:32 AM - 1 Like	#12
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by jcdoss Do you know whether SR is disabled when EFCS is active? Yep, we don't get a choice in the matter, JC!

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12-22-2016, 03:01 AM	#13
DimC Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Paris Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 813	Originally posted by amoringello Are the lights in the background LED, or perhaps using LED for lighting? (if not using fluorescent lights) I would suspect the same can occur with LED lights. Especially cheap ones like Christmas lights -- they flash quickly. Shoot even with normal shutter over 1/1000s and you may see some of the lights appear dark. More expensive lights, like those for photography do not flash. I shot this one in my studio with Lastolite regular flash strobes, but at the same time I'm using the cheap LED Christmas lights you see in the background. Camera was on a tripod with 2 seconds delay and EFCS on as a testing purpose. Îve shot same scene with EFCS off and it was good, no funky behavior 😀. Îve shot a few landscapes with EFCS on and didn't notice any issue, nor did I notice any improvement to be honest.

12-24-2016, 11:32 AM	#14
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562	Originally posted by DimC I shot this one in my studio with Lastolite regular flash strobes, but at the same time I'm using the cheap LED Christmas lights you see in the background. Camera was on a tripod with 2 seconds delay and EFCS on as a testing purpose. Îve shot same scene with EFCS off and it was good, no funky behavior 😀. Îve shot a few landscapes with EFCS on and didn't notice any issue, nor did I notice any improvement to be honest. I thought they might be but difficult to tell. :-) It would be interesting to try the same scene, but with the LEDs turned off, and see if that has any positive effect on the color banding.

12-26-2016, 11:45 AM	#15
klaus123 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Germany Posts: 238	I found another negative effect: For short exposure times the rolling shutter effect is much worst than using mechanical shutter. Take pictures out of the sinde window of d driving vehicle and look to vertical elements like lamp posts: Here is a link toa german forum showing some picture examples: K1: Rolling Shutter