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01-08-2020, 01:30 PM - 4 Likes   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Have all the DSLR manufacturers crippled their viewfinder focusing?
For the factory-installed focusing screens they did, as far as I have read / seen / tried. The difference is, that other manufacturers offer manual-focus optimized options, whereas Pentax's ML/MF/MI/ME-60 (for APS-C Kameras) just differ in the lines, despite their claims in the catalog: "These interchangeable focusing screens provide easy detection of the in-focus area, and allow for extra fine focus adjustment in manual-focus operation." Obviously, Pentax does talk about focus screens and using them for manual focus.

Just did an informal experiment: With the Pentax standard focusing screen, my KP is A LOT brighter than my EF-S equipped K-5 when using the DFA 50mm Macro, without significant advantages in determining focus, maybe a tad narrower range but not a night-and-day difference (which it is for brightness). Using the FA77, the viewfinder brightness has somewhat caught up, but it still muted. The DoF of the viewfinder image is a little narrower on the EF-S-Type screen. If I had to quantify, it's maybe about 1.5cm (+/- 0.7cm, EF-S) instead of 2cm (+/- 1cm, Pentax) range at an 80cm ruler as target, at a ~30 degree angle, outside of which things blur visibly for me. For the FA 50mm 1.4 (my only f/1.4 lens), things improve in favor of the EF-S again. Only slight difference in brightness left, and a lot narrower DoF in the viewfinder than on the Pentax screen, especially with a lot "steeper' fall-off and overall more pronounced blur in the unsharp regions.

The DFA 100mm WR and FA 31mm behave similar to the above - very little difference other than a darker viewfinder for the 100mm f/2.8, and some improvement for the 31mm LTD, still at the price of a somewhat darker viewfinder. The EF-S created a moireé out of the 1mm marks on the ruler when vieed at 60cm distance, so things where somewhat difficult to judge.

As a third data point, the brightness of the screen in my Pentax program-A is in between the other two, and it looks fairly grainy outside the focusing aids. It has a microprism ring and a horizontal split image circle. The microprism ring showed the slightest deviations of the focusing point on my relatively contrasty and regular target. I remember this is different with less contrasty subjects. For both the Fa50mm/1.4 and the DFA50mm/2.8 macro, it definitely gave the most distinct indication of focus.



So if manual focus with really fast lenses is your concern, the EF-S definitely is much more usable. Around f/2.8, I don't see an improvement anymore and would recommend one of the other types. Note that at around f/5.6, those focusing aids tend to go (partially) dark unless your pupil is in the dead center. Even then, the microprism is almost unusable, the split screen still works well though.

01-08-2020, 01:44 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by JensE Quote
For the factory-installed focusing screens they did, as far as I have read / seen / tried. The difference is, that other manufacturers offer manual-focus optimized options, whereas Pentax's ML/MF/MI/ME-60 (for APS-C Kameras) just differ in the lines, despite their claims in the catalog: "These interchangeable focusing screens provide easy detection of the in-focus area, and allow for extra fine focus adjustment in manual-focus operation." Obviously, Pentax does talk about focus screens and using them for manual focus.

Just did an informal experiment: With the Pentax standard focusing screen, my KP is A LOT brighter than my EF-S equipped K-5 when using the DFA 50mm Macro, without significant advantages in determining focus, maybe a tad narrower range but not a night-and-day difference (which it is for brightness). Using the FA77, the viewfinder brightness has somewhat caught up, but it still muted. The DoF of the viewfinder image is a little narrower on the EF-S-Type screen. If I had to quantify, it's maybe about 1.5cm (+/- 0.7cm, EF-S) instead of 2cm (+/- 1cm, Pentax) range at an 80cm ruler as target, at a ~30 degree angle, outside of which things blur visibly for me. For the FA 50mm 1.4 (my only f/1.4 lens), things improve in favor of the EF-S again. Only slight difference in brightness left, and a lot narrower DoF in the viewfinder than on the Pentax screen, especially with a lot "steeper' fall-off and overall more pronounced blur in the unsharp regions.

The DFA 100mm WR and FA 31mm behave similar to the above - very little difference other than a darker viewfinder for the 100mm f/2.8, and some improvement for the 31mm LTD, still at the price of a somewhat darker viewfinder. The EF-S created a moireé out of the 1mm marks on the ruler when vieed at 60cm distance, so things where somewhat difficult to judge.

As a third data point, the brightness of the screen in my Pentax program-A is in between the other two, and it looks fairly grainy outside the focusing aids. It has a microprism ring and a horizontal split image circle. The microprism ring showed the slightest deviations of the focusing point on my relatively contrasty and regular target. I remember this is different with less contrasty subjects. For both the Fa50mm/1.4 and the DFA50mm/2.8 macro, it definitely gave the most distinct indication of focus.



So if manual focus with really fast lenses is your concern, the EF-S definitely is much more usable. Around f/2.8, I don't see an improvement anymore and would recommend one of the other types. Note that at around f/5.6, those focusing aids tend to go (partially) dark unless your pupil is in the dead center. Even then, the microprism is almost unusable, the split screen still works well though.
Thanks for the real world testing and reporting of these results. I will have to reconsider changing the focusing screen in the K-1. Remember having very specialized focusing screens for my Olympus OM system. Some of the macro screens wouldn't even work for normal lenses and photography.

Thanks,
barondla
01-08-2020, 04:47 PM - 2 Likes   #18
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I think I'll put in an order in for a Canon S Type (link in my first post), this just feels like something I have to tick off the list as a 'been there tried that' kinda thing.
01-09-2020, 01:05 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I think I'll put in an order in for a Canon S Type (link in my first post), this just feels like something I have to tick off the list as a 'been there tried that' kinda thing.
Cool! And the next time the subject comes up, you can add your experience to help the next person.


Steve

01-09-2020, 01:15 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Cool! And the next time the subject comes up, you can add your experience to help the next person.


Steve
I will try and document all my failings in detail
05-12-2020, 07:12 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I will try and document all my failings in detail
So Bruce, did you get your focusing screen and if so what's been your experience with it?
05-12-2020, 11:20 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
So Bruce, did you get your focusing screen and if so what's been your experience with it?
Yeah I did; I Replaced My Focusing Screen (for the K-1)! - PentaxForums.com

No regrets.

05-14-2020, 06:48 PM - 1 Like   #23
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The best focusing screen I have used was the EE-S screen for Canon (on a Canon 5D classic)
Very accurate.

I have also use the focusing screen (split type ) with the Pentax magnifying eyepiece and that was rather good, though not as accurate as the EE-S (and thats considering that the EE-S was used on a shallower DOF for same focus distance FF camera. )
I also found the split sometimes interfering with compositional judgement.

I've also use a higher magnification eyepiece on the K1, but that did not work very well.
The focus confirmation on the K1 is probably good for f2.8 and slower lenses and the magnification won't help with accuracy since the focus screen is also probably cater up to f2.8 and slower.


All said, I do all my fast lenses shooting on my modded A7 for the past 6-7yrs.
Far better speed and accuracy.
05-20-2020, 09:09 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
All said, I do all my fast lenses shooting on my modded A7 for the past 6-7yrs.
Far better speed and accuracy.
What's your success rate comparison between the EVF and an S-type screen?
05-20-2020, 11:18 PM - 2 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcdoss Quote
What's your success rate comparison between the EVF and an S-type screen?

Earth and Sky (really)
In situations where I have high contrast, I can very quickly turn focus until I see the focus peaking, then as I go past the point of focus, the peaking falls, off, and I immediately go back on the focus and get to the point of peak focus again (and snap the shot).
Its basically the brain taking over what CDAF will do which in some cases will be 'smarter' than CDAF.


In many cases, I am so familiar with the peaking amount shown on the EVF, that I don't even need to go thru the "focus over then back track on focus" portion of the focusing.

There is also the ability to quickly zoom in at the press of a button for better visual focus confirmation.
This can be so fast that it becomes part of the focusing process.

Lastly, there is also a "sharpening shimmer" that happens at the area of focus.
This is an artifact of the EVF/evf sample image rather than a feature.
Nonetheless, it can be used to good effect as a focus aid.


If I am to give a percentage to it in terms of accuracy :

EES screen - 60-70% (with its limitations to fast lenses and at my time a 12mp Canon 5D; not a 36mp beast )
Peaking only - 75-80%
Sharpening "shimmer" - 70-80% (it looses out to peaking only because one needs to be more alert for it)
Zoom in - 90-100% (the lower end part is because the subject can have moved between zoom and shutter press)



All in, I really wish Pentax will spin off some sort of MILC.
I do believe Pentax can do it better because Pentax got the sensibilities in making a camera a camera (the Sony does move clunkier in the photographic flow of taking a photo)
In fact they did very well and ahead of the time with the GXR M-module (then they just dropped the ball)
05-21-2020, 04:53 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Earth and Sky (really)
In situations where I have high contrast, I can very quickly turn focus until I see the focus peaking, then as I go past the point of focus, the peaking falls, off, and I immediately go back on the focus and get to the point of peak focus again (and snap the shot).
Its basically the brain taking over what CDAF will do which in some cases will be 'smarter' than CDAF.


In many cases, I am so familiar with the peaking amount shown on the EVF, that I don't even need to go thru the "focus over then back track on focus" portion of the focusing.

There is also the ability to quickly zoom in at the press of a button for better visual focus confirmation.
This can be so fast that it becomes part of the focusing process.

Lastly, there is also a "sharpening shimmer" that happens at the area of focus.
This is an artifact of the EVF/evf sample image rather than a feature.
Nonetheless, it can be used to good effect as a focus aid.


If I am to give a percentage to it in terms of accuracy :

EES screen - 60-70% (with its limitations to fast lenses and at my time a 12mp Canon 5D; not a 36mp beast )
Peaking only - 75-80%
Sharpening "shimmer" - 70-80% (it looses out to peaking only because one needs to be more alert for it)
Zoom in - 90-100% (the lower end part is because the subject can have moved between zoom and shutter press)



All in, I really wish Pentax will spin off some sort of MILC.
I do believe Pentax can do it better because Pentax got the sensibilities in making a camera a camera (the Sony does move clunkier in the photographic flow of taking a photo)
In fact they did very well and ahead of the time with the GXR M-module (then they just dropped the ball)
This is really what I want the most through the eye piece experience, zoom. It doesn't sound like its possible with OVF technology?? (maybe i'm wrong about that) so for me it feels like EVF is the future in some way or another (for all cameras). They MUST provide zooming through the eye piece to remain competitive I think (long term as we progress through technology).

All the times I have used Live View for focus, its so I can zoom in and fine tune. Even after replacing the focus screen and have gained better focus feedback, if I am still trying for critical focus (something like f1.8 with the FA77) and the thing I am isolating the focus on is farish away, then its still luck with the OVF. However, if that thing is fairly close for focus then the OVF is enough, so for me distance is quite an important factor in all of this when discussing focusing options. For me nothing trumps zoom, its what lets you get the best focus feedback of all, and it wouldn't matter if it was OVF zooming in or EVF, just sometimes I need to zoom in, all the times I resort to using LV for focus its because of zoom requirements.

I really wish Pentax release a K-02, a successor to their K-01. We know that they can do mirrorless, we know that they can do mirrorless with the K Mount... would be amazing. I would be happy to have a retro Pentax camera body, no rear LCD, just an EVF instead and mirrorless around the 20mp mark, would be fun!
I would really have bought a K-01 by now if the experience wasn't the same as just shooting my KP or K-1 via LV all the time, but alas it kinda is.
05-21-2020, 07:58 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Earth and Sky (really)
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
All the times I have used Live View for focus, its so I can zoom in and fine tune.
Thanks for the info, guys. I've been around the horn with photography equipment over the past couple decades. I've used a Sony NEX for a year or two and was very impressed with the EVF when used with manual Pentax lenses even then. For some reason, I used the rear screen as a waist level finder with the Sony a lot more than I've used the K-1's screen as a waist level finder, although the increased versatility of the K-1's screen is a bonus. At any rate, I'm finding the K-1 getting in the way with manual lenses moreso than the NEX ever did, this after 3 years of using the K-1. I've been progressively frustrated with MF accuracy with my K-1s lately, to the point where I'm starting to lose my mojo for photography altogether. Thanks for your detailed information again!
05-21-2020, 03:22 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcdoss Quote
Thanks for the info, guys. I've been around the horn with photography equipment over the past couple decades. I've used a Sony NEX for a year or two and was very impressed with the EVF when used with manual Pentax lenses even then. For some reason, I used the rear screen as a waist level finder with the Sony a lot more than I've used the K-1's screen as a waist level finder, although the increased versatility of the K-1's screen is a bonus. At any rate, I'm finding the K-1 getting in the way with manual lenses moreso than the NEX ever did, this after 3 years of using the K-1. I've been progressively frustrated with MF accuracy with my K-1s lately, to the point where I'm starting to lose my mojo for photography altogether. Thanks for your detailed information again!
Well, for me I just regret not swapping the focus screen out of my K-1 earlier, I am definitely more content. But it was a $175 swap! Not really the cheapest mod, whether those funds are best put towards another camera with a great EVF experience I cannot say.
05-21-2020, 04:27 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Well, for me I just regret not swapping the focus screen out of my K-1 earlier, I am definitely more content. But it was a $175 swap! Not really the cheapest mod, whether those funds are best put towards another camera with a great EVF experience I cannot say.
You bought the S-type correct? I've seen two comments about it darkening the eyepiece significantly and mismetering at smaller apertures. One said it bothered him so much he ended up reinstalling the original.

Like you I'm finding a few issues in certain situations precisely focusing with manual lenses which is primarily what I've used all week. I have Katzeyes in both of my K-70's and would seriously consider Focusing Screens for my K1. What are you finding with your auto-focusing slower lenses and or small apertures? If looks as tho they may have a couple of screens less likely to affect metering?
05-21-2020, 04:36 PM   #30
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...and I guess it'd be great if maybe someone could address the use of split-screens, also available from focusingscreens.com. These allow for better accuracy compared to the S-type, correct? Do they completely fubar metering? Should I just bite it and invest in a Z6 or A7, or should I just give up entirely and find a different hobby?

Last edited by jcdoss; 05-21-2020 at 08:05 PM.
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