K1ii vs K3 wb by color checker measure

mactrash · 02-23-2021, 09:56 AM

Same light same umbrella

K3 Da70 5900k
K1ii Da70 6200k

Do your K1ii act the same or just me?

stevebrot · 02-23-2021, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by mactrash

Do your K1ii act the same or just me?

How are you deriving the color temperatures?

Steve

Reed · 02-23-2021, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by mactrash

Same light same umbrella

K3 Da70 5900k
K1ii Da70 6200k

Do your K1ii act the same or just me?

Same settings of WB in menu for flash? By defaults WB for flash is set to Auto. That can be confusing. Menu C3/17

mactrash · 02-23-2021, 10:56 AM

@stevebrot @Reed I set the WB with K2 5600k in both camera...

Photography colorcheck passport with same light same setup

then both pef files load in lightroom and pick the wb target box in the color check photo and they result not same :O

---------- Post added 02-24-2021 at 01:57 AM ----------

Originally posted by Reed

Same settings of WB in menu for flash? By defaults WB for flash is set to Auto. That can be confusing. Menu C3/17

My C3/17 set unchange

stevebrot · 02-23-2021, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by mactrash

@stevebrot @Reed I set the WB with K2 5600k in both camera...

Photography colorcheck passport with same light same setup

then both pef files load in lightroom and pick the wb target box in the color check photo and they result not same :O

~~If you set a different WB on each camera, you should expect different results when the WB patch on your colorchecker is "picked" in Lightroom.~~

I am so dozy...Yes, with both set manually to 5600K, one would expect that Lightroom would import them both as 5600K, though with tint applied according to Adobe's dark magic. It does not surprise me that the WB patch on the color checker was evaluated differently between the two after import. If 100% correspondence is needed between the two cameras, you might want to shoot as DNG and use Adobe's DNG Profile Editor to create a custom profile for the lighting mix for that session for each camera.*

Steve

* A cool feature of the DNG Profile Editor when paired with X-rite's Macbeth card.

**JensE** · 02-23-2021, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

If you set a different WB on each camera, you should expect different results when the WB patch on your colorchecker is "picked" in Lightroom.

Why that? The camera color balance can be applied based on the (transformed) raw data in the PEF, and I thought the picker to a grey target would be an alternative to determine it. A key difference is the color matrix applied to the raw data to determine RGB channels, which is camera specific in lightroom (or embedded, not sure if PEFs have that).

stevebrot · 02-23-2021, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by JensE

Why that?

My mistake. May I plead lack of coffee?

As for explaining the difference, I suspect the blame lies with the camera profile applied on import. The two cameras have different sensors (duh!) and image processors and their own versions of Adobe Standard as a result. Embedded profiles being a DNG feature, I am not sure if PEFs include them or not. I strongly suspect not.

Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 02-23-2021 at 01:55 PM. Reason: grammar

**JensE** · 02-23-2021, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

I may be interpreting incorrectly, but because the OP manually set the WB as two different degrees K.

... which I thought was only relevant to the raw -> JPEG conversion, so PEF raw data should be unmodified and 'pick' equally.

stevebrot · 02-23-2021, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by JensE

... which I thought was only relevant to the raw -> JPEG conversion, so PEF raw data should be unmodified and 'pick' equally.

I misread the OP's explanation. See edits above.

As for the PEF data picking equally...ummmm...no. When you use the picker for WB adjustment, you are picking fully rendered pixel data. White balance is always applied (read from the makersnotes section of the EXIF), but Lightroom makes other adjustments to color balance and tone based on the import (camera) profile. To test without a camera profile in the mix, using a utility like dcraw or RawDigger would allow a less sullied comparison.

Steve

mactrash · 02-23-2021, 02:58 PM

Just re-test and this time not involve the Color checker

K3 & K1ii both set to K2 5600k and flash WB is unchange style = natural

Each camera shoot a PEF with same lighting

Open them with RawTherapee

K3 show 5723k
K1ii show 6277k

stevebrot · 02-23-2021, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by mactrash

Just re-test and this time not involve the Color checker

K3 & K1ii both set to K2 5600k and flash WB is unchange style = natural

Each camera shoot a PEF with same lighting

Open them with RawTherapee

K3 show 5723k
K1ii show 6277k

Just to confirm, you are doing flash photos, right? If so, what is your kit? Also, what exposure mode are you using on the cameras and what settings are you using including any exposure compensation or flash exposure compensation. What lens on each camera and do either have a filter, even a "skylight" or "uv" type?

I am not a RawTherapee user and don't have first hand experience with how it handles WB, so I am worthless there.

Steve

mactrash · 02-23-2021, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Just to confirm, you are doing flash photos, right? If so, what is your kit? Also, what exposure mode are you using on the cameras and what settings are you using including any exposure compensation or flash exposure compensation. What lens on each camera and do either have a filter, even a "skylight" or "uv" type?

I am not a RawTherapee user and don't have first hand experience with how it handles WB, so I am worthless there.

Steve

Thanks for your follow up

Both cameras use same lens Pentax DA70 without filter

Flash system is Godox Pro line with color stable mode (+-100K) in M mode and metered with a calibrated sekonic 758 meter

The strange thing is the K1ii have almost 300k different even 2 camera I set manually to 5600K

mactrash · 02-23-2021, 04:55 PM

Seems all use dng resolve the issue... Will write back if I am wrong...

**JensE** · 02-23-2021, 05:31 PM

I feel more at home in Rawtherapee than in Lightroom :-)

In Rawtherapee, you either use the camera WB or the color picker for 'measured' WB. I would expect the 'Camera' WB to match what you selected manually, but maybe that's just the 'Camera Measured' one. Are the WB adjustment features in the Camera set to none (Info button on the WB screen)?

The difference between the cameras in measured WB via picker in RT may be related the input color matrix. In Rawtherapee, you can choose which one to use, see WhiteBalance/Input Profile/. My RT version doesn't have one for the K-1 II, so it would use the coefficients embedded in the raw file, whereas there is one for the K-3.

stevebrot · 02-23-2021, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by mactrash

The strange thing is the K1ii have almost 300k different even 2 camera I set manually to 5600K

Yes, that is particularly puzzling.

Originally posted by mactrash

Seems all use dng resolve the issue... Will write back if I am wrong...

It should make no difference.

Originally posted by JensE

Are the WB adjustment features in the Camera set to none (Info button on the WB screen)?

That was my next question! I don't know why Pentax included that option for degrees K manual entry...grrrr. The additional bias numbers are stored separately in the EXIF (WBShiftAB and WBShiftGM) from the white balance bias factors (WhitePoint) and it is possible all three are used by the LR and RT with the °K value being back-calculated from the factors.

Steve

02-23-2021, 09:56 AM	#1
mactrash Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: China Posts: 117	K1ii vs K3 wb by color checker measure Same light same umbrella K3 Da70 5900k K1ii Da70 6200k Do your K1ii act the same or just me?

02-23-2021, 11:27 AM	#5
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by mactrash @stevebrot @Reed I set the WB with K2 5600k in both camera... Photography colorcheck passport with same light same setup then both pef files load in lightroom and pick the wb target box in the color check photo and they result not same :O ~~If you set a different WB on each camera, you should expect different results when the WB patch on your colorchecker is "picked" in Lightroom.~~ I am so dozy...Yes, with both set manually to 5600K, one would expect that Lightroom would import them both as 5600K, though with tint applied according to Adobe's dark magic. It does not surprise me that the WB patch on the color checker was evaluated differently between the two after import. If 100% correspondence is needed between the two cameras, you might want to shoot as DNG and use Adobe's DNG Profile Editor to create a custom profile for the lighting mix for that session for each camera.* Steve * A cool feature of the DNG Profile Editor when paired with X-rite's Macbeth card. Last edited by stevebrot; 02-23-2021 at 01:54 PM. Reason: completeness and clarity

02-23-2021, 03:46 PM	#12
mactrash Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: China Posts: 117 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot Just to confirm, you are doing flash photos, right? If so, what is your kit? Also, what exposure mode are you using on the cameras and what settings are you using including any exposure compensation or flash exposure compensation. What lens on each camera and do either have a filter, even a "skylight" or "uv" type? I am not a RawTherapee user and don't have first hand experience with how it handles WB, so I am worthless there. Steve Thanks for your follow up Both cameras use same lens Pentax DA70 without filter Flash system is Godox Pro line with color stable mode (+-100K) in M mode and metered with a calibrated sekonic 758 meter The strange thing is the K1ii have almost 300k different even 2 camera I set manually to 5600K Last edited by mactrash; 02-23-2021 at 03:55 PM.

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02-23-2021, 10:26 AM	#2
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by mactrash Do your K1ii act the same or just me? How are you deriving the color temperatures? Steve

02-23-2021, 10:29 AM	#3
Reed Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Warsaw Photos: Gallery Posts: 638	Originally posted by mactrash Same light same umbrella K3 Da70 5900k K1ii Da70 6200k Do your K1ii act the same or just me? Same settings of WB in menu for flash? By defaults WB for flash is set to Auto. That can be confusing. Menu C3/17

02-23-2021, 10:56 AM	#4
mactrash Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: China Posts: 117 Original Poster	@stevebrot @Reed I set the WB with K2 5600k in both camera... Photography colorcheck passport with same light same setup then both pef files load in lightroom and pick the wb target box in the color check photo and they result not same :O ---------- Post added 02-24-2021 at 01:57 AM ---------- Originally posted by Reed Same settings of WB in menu for flash? By defaults WB for flash is set to Auto. That can be confusing. Menu C3/17 My C3/17 set unchange

02-23-2021, 01:04 PM	#6
JensE Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Leipzig Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,969	Originally posted by stevebrot If you set a different WB on each camera, you should expect different results when the WB patch on your colorchecker is "picked" in Lightroom. Why that? The camera color balance can be applied based on the (transformed) raw data in the PEF, and I thought the picker to a grey target would be an alternative to determine it. A key difference is the color matrix applied to the raw data to determine RGB channels, which is camera specific in lightroom (or embedded, not sure if PEFs have that).

02-23-2021, 01:20 PM	#7
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by JensE Why that? My mistake. May I plead lack of coffee? As for explaining the difference, I suspect the blame lies with the camera profile applied on import. The two cameras have different sensors (duh!) and image processors and their own versions of Adobe Standard as a result. Embedded profiles being a DNG feature, I am not sure if PEFs include them or not. I strongly suspect not. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 02-23-2021 at 01:55 PM. Reason: grammar

02-23-2021, 01:23 PM	#8
JensE Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Leipzig Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,969	Originally posted by stevebrot I may be interpreting incorrectly, but because the OP manually set the WB as two different degrees K. ... which I thought was only relevant to the raw -> JPEG conversion, so PEF raw data should be unmodified and 'pick' equally.

02-23-2021, 01:51 PM	#9
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by JensE ... which I thought was only relevant to the raw -> JPEG conversion, so PEF raw data should be unmodified and 'pick' equally. I misread the OP's explanation. See edits above. As for the PEF data picking equally...ummmm...no. When you use the picker for WB adjustment, you are picking fully rendered pixel data. White balance is always applied (read from the makersnotes section of the EXIF), but Lightroom makes other adjustments to color balance and tone based on the import (camera) profile. To test without a camera profile in the mix, using a utility like dcraw or RawDigger would allow a less sullied comparison. Steve

02-23-2021, 02:58 PM	#10
mactrash Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: China Posts: 117 Original Poster	Just re-test and this time not involve the Color checker K3 & K1ii both set to K2 5600k and flash WB is unchange style = natural Each camera shoot a PEF with same lighting Open them with RawTherapee K3 show 5723k K1ii show 6277k

02-23-2021, 03:30 PM	#11
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by mactrash Just re-test and this time not involve the Color checker K3 & K1ii both set to K2 5600k and flash WB is unchange style = natural Each camera shoot a PEF with same lighting Open them with RawTherapee K3 show 5723k K1ii show 6277k Just to confirm, you are doing flash photos, right? If so, what is your kit? Also, what exposure mode are you using on the cameras and what settings are you using including any exposure compensation or flash exposure compensation. What lens on each camera and do either have a filter, even a "skylight" or "uv" type? I am not a RawTherapee user and don't have first hand experience with how it handles WB, so I am worthless there. Steve

02-23-2021, 04:55 PM	#13
mactrash Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: China Posts: 117 Original Poster	Seems all use dng resolve the issue... Will write back if I am wrong...

02-23-2021, 05:31 PM	#14
JensE Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Leipzig Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,969	I feel more at home in Rawtherapee than in Lightroom :-) In Rawtherapee, you either use the camera WB or the color picker for 'measured' WB. I would expect the 'Camera' WB to match what you selected manually, but maybe that's just the 'Camera Measured' one. Are the WB adjustment features in the Camera set to none (Info button on the WB screen)? The difference between the cameras in measured WB via picker in RT may be related the input color matrix. In Rawtherapee, you can choose which one to use, see WhiteBalance/Input Profile/. My RT version doesn't have one for the K-1 II, so it would use the coefficients embedded in the raw file, whereas there is one for the K-3.

02-23-2021, 07:03 PM	#15
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by mactrash The strange thing is the K1ii have almost 300k different even 2 camera I set manually to 5600K Yes, that is particularly puzzling. Originally posted by mactrash Seems all use dng resolve the issue... Will write back if I am wrong... It should make no difference. Originally posted by JensE Are the WB adjustment features in the Camera set to none (Info button on the WB screen)? That was my next question! I don't know why Pentax included that option for degrees K manual entry...grrrr. The additional bias numbers are stored separately in the EXIF (WBShiftAB and WBShiftGM) from the white balance bias factors (WhitePoint) and it is possible all three are used by the LR and RT with the °K value being back-calculated from the factors. Steve