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03-01-2021, 06:01 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by VSTAR Quote
If you are referring to reviews at say...DPreview...then remembe this is the site that one year compared different FF cameras and left out the K1. Why? It was not expensive enough. And no I did not make that up.

QuoteOriginally posted by OldChE Quote
Really? What was the logic for that?

---------- Post added 03-01-21 at 01:23 PM ----------



I guess we differ on this point. I like reading camera reviews when I'm considering buying a new camera. I think it is useful for learning about the features of the camera, and some comparisons to other cameras on the market, or to previous models from that manufacturer, are helpful, as long as you recognize there may be some personal biases (or obligations to advertisers) that may affect what they say.
Here are the two articles:

$2000+
2017 Roundup: Semi-Pro Interchangeable Lens Cameras $2000+: Digital Photography Review


$1200-$2000

2017 Roundup: $1200-2000 interchangeable lens cameras: full-frame: Digital Photography Review

Guess the Pentax was afforable enough during that time that it made it on to the <$2000USD list.

As the article (pg. 8) says,
QuoteQuote:
The Sony a7 II and Pentax K-1 ended up in a tie, as they're both very good cameras with roughly the same price, but targeted toward different audiences.



Last edited by hayuata; 03-01-2021 at 06:06 PM.
03-01-2021, 06:39 PM   #32
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The Panasonic S1 hardly ever isn't reviewed with a few pokes at the size/weight. That hasn't stopped some from buying it.
03-02-2021, 03:17 AM - 2 Likes   #33
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There is almost no intersection between "DPReview" and "journalism".

DPReview lacks
  • professionalism (they frequently mess up evaluations / measurements),
  • reliability (they frequently need to be corrected by readers about mistakes they made in their descriptions),
  • impartiality (they view everything through their electronic gadget fanboy eyes and are apparently incapable of conceiving other types of photographers),
  • and consistency (testing/evaluation criteria are all over the place; they don't even conform to their own rules).
The tone of a review will also heavily depend on who the authors are. There is no editorial oversight that addresses inappropriate subtext or consistently biased connotations.

Therefore, it is no wonder that you'll often get bad opinion pieces, rather than reviews, from DPReview.

I think luftfluss made a good point about evaluations depending on context, but this argument does not absolve DPReview. At the very least, they should have mentioned advantages of systems with increased mass and therefore increased inertia, and refrain from language like "obstrusive". Again, there are positive responses to seeing a camera that does not look like it has been bought at an airport store for electronic gadgets. Models regularly ask me whether I am a professional photographer and I am sure that this is partly owed to the K-1 looking like a professional tool.

BTW, personally I couldn't care less what DPReview or any other site writes about the equipment I use. The poor handling of Pentax equipment by DPReview ("K-1 II is the second-worst camera of 2018", K-1 II gets raked over the coals for processing while other brands get away with similar or worse manipulation, HD D-FA* 50/1.4 is given a "meh" response, HD D-FA* 85/1.4 has not been reviewed, etc.) is still an issue because it will affect Pentax sales. We know that Pentax is mainly focused on Japan, but better overseas sales would surely be welcome and Pentax is simply not given a fair deal by DPReview (Hanlon's razor applies, though).
03-02-2021, 04:47 AM - 3 Likes   #34
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Generally speaking, I wish sites did a better job of evaluating cameras as a still photography tool. I understand that video is a big deal these days and that is a thing that separates cameras. It just isn't a big deal to a lot of photographers and a camera can be awesome at taking video and still be a lousy camera for capturing still photographs.

The thing that bothers me about DP Review is the snarky attitude. Pentax doesn't make cameras that work for everyone and they aren't the biggest brand by a long shot. I just remember their DFA *50 review (which wasn't really a review -- more a glorified hands on). They started off mentioning that they thought they needed to review the lens because they didn't know if they would see any more SLR lenses from Pentax in the future. They mentioned multiple times how big it was. They managed to bring up the K-1's slow auto focus and spent a huge amount of time talking about loCA.

Every review should list both pros and cons, but they shouldn't do it a snarky way and they should be pretty consistent across cameras and lenses. I actually really like ephotozine for lens reviews. They are concise, consistent, and show the test charts that they are basing their evaluations on.

03-02-2021, 06:12 AM   #35
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If one will have good advice and knowledge of Pentax cameras and lenses there are the camera and lenses databases and real user reviews on your favourite forum
03-02-2021, 07:28 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Generally speaking, I wish sites did a better job of evaluating cameras as a still photography tool. I understand that video is a big deal these days and that is a thing that separates cameras. It just isn't a big deal to a lot of photographers and a camera can be awesome at taking video and still be a lousy camera for capturing still photographs.

The thing that bothers me about DP Review is the snarky attitude. Pentax doesn't make cameras that work for everyone and they aren't the biggest brand by a long shot. I just remember their DFA *50 review (which wasn't really a review -- more a glorified hands on). They started off mentioning that they thought they needed to review the lens because they didn't know if they would see any more SLR lenses from Pentax in the future. They mentioned multiple times how big it was. They managed to bring up the K-1's slow auto focus and spent a huge amount of time talking about loCA.

Every review should list both pros and cons, but they shouldn't do it a snarky way and they should be pretty consistent across cameras and lenses. I actually really like ephotozine for lens reviews. They are concise, consistent, and show the test charts that they are basing their evaluations on.
The only issue with them being how old some o their reviews are, and the cameras they were tested on for lenses.
03-02-2021, 08:19 AM - 1 Like   #37
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Camera size and weight has gone through various cycles. When I bought my first Pentax camera, the ME Super, some forty years ago one of the main selling points was how light and compact it was, at 460 grams. Indeed that was one of the strengths of the M series from Pentax, even the semi-professional MX (LX came out a bit later and was somewhat bigger and heavier at 565 grams). The M series lenses were also quite compact. SLR film cameras did not get much lighter than the ME/ME Super/MX etc. as they started adding built in auto-focus and autowinders towards the end of the film era. The K-1 at 1.010 grams is more than twice as heavy as the ME Super. The 28-105 kit lens is also much heavier (440 grams) than the typical kit lens for the film camera, the M50 1.7 at 185 grams. So the K-1 with its kit lens at 1.450 grams weighs 125% more than the ME Super with its kit lens. This is of course comparing apples to oranges. A more relevant comparison would be between the K-1 and a semi-professional fullframe mirrorless (since that is where the competition is headed) camera from a competitor. The Canon R6 weighs about as much as the LX, at 600 grams, so considerably less than the Pentax K-1. Given that Pentax is sticking with DSLRs it will have to compete on something else than weight and bulk in the future. The most obvious differentiating feature will of course be the optical viewfinder, so Pentax or Ricoh had better hope that enough buyers don't want to give that up.
03-02-2021, 08:35 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The only issue with them being how old some o their reviews are, and the cameras they were tested on for lenses.
Sure. I'm more talking about style of review. Similar testing on every lens, decent images, and no snarky notes against any particular brand. Obviously reviews age and it would be nice if some of Pentax's lenses were retested on full frame rather than just on APS-C.

03-02-2021, 09:07 AM - 1 Like   #39
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This is the key fact

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The K-1 is smaller than most other FF cameras, but it's also one of the heaviest (up there with the D850/Panny S1 and below 1D/D5).
It is also very chunky front-to-back, particularly compared with how "short" it is in the other dimensions, which also makes it feel brick-like.

Since it's so dense, it actually feels great in hand because unless you have a monster tele the weight is centered on the body, not on the front of the lens.
Since the beginning, Pentaxes were designed around a long register distance. The lens mount is farther from the film or sensor. That means for a given focal length, their lenses will be more compact, because more of that focal length is within the camera body, not the lens. Conversely, a mirrorless body with very short register distance will have to replicate that missing body depth within the lens, through optical trickery or raw lens barrel length.

I don't mind if my camera is a little thicker if all my lenses can therefore be shorter. The more lenses you carry, the more you benefit.
03-02-2021, 09:28 AM - 2 Likes   #40
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I've always rolled my eyes at the "it's so much lighter!" mirrorless crowd. I've always found the K-1's heft reassuring, and well-balanced against heavier lenses.

Then I picked up a Sony A7Riv. With a Sigma 85 attached, it weighs about the same, and feel lighter than the mighty DFA* 85 alone. Yes, there are alternatives, but for event work, you feel every ounce.

Personally, I prefer the ergonomics of Pentax all the way. But, I am in the minority - and even I am willing to trade that for convenience from time to time.
03-02-2021, 01:23 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by OldChE Quote
That looks like a nice bag, thanks. The kit I ordered will come with a camera bag, I'll see how that works out.
Are you a body builder?.

I was not suggesting this bag, just pointing out that the incremental differences between various marque of camera is lost in the total weight you carry when a bag like this is your regular kit.

I guess your bag will be somewhat lighter.
03-02-2021, 01:36 PM - 1 Like   #42
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If you think DP Review have it in for Pentax, you should try being an Olympus user

When I bought my EM1 MkII last May I wasn't able to get out and handle one due to lockdown. I was looking for something smaller than my Olympus E30 and I hoped to have smaller and lighter lenses of equivalent focal length.

The camera feels perfect n my hand and seems balanced whether I have a 17mm F/1.8 prime on (120g) or an old 135mm F/2.8 lens from the 80's (585g).

Weight is about distribution, ergonomics and balance.

Can't wait to get my ME Super's back from service
03-02-2021, 01:53 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by gylfimag Quote
Camera size and weight has gone through various cycles. When I bought my first Pentax camera, the ME Super, some forty years ago one of the main selling points was how light and compact it was, at 460 grams. Indeed that was one of the strengths of the M series from Pentax, even the semi-professional MX (LX came out a bit later and was somewhat bigger and heavier at 565 grams). The M series lenses were also quite compact. SLR film cameras did not get much lighter than the ME/ME Super/MX etc. as they started adding built in auto-focus and autowinders towards the end of the film era. The K-1 at 1.010 grams is more than twice as heavy as the ME Super. The 28-105 kit lens is also much heavier (440 grams) than the typical kit lens for the film camera, the M50 1.7 at 185 grams. So the K-1 with its kit lens at 1.450 grams weighs 125% more than the ME Super with its kit lens. This is of course comparing apples to oranges. A more relevant comparison would be between the K-1 and a semi-professional fullframe mirrorless (since that is where the competition is headed) camera from a competitor. The Canon R6 weighs about as much as the LX, at 600 grams, so considerably less than the Pentax K-1. Given that Pentax is sticking with DSLRs it will have to compete on something else than weight and bulk in the future. The most obvious differentiating feature will of course be the optical viewfinder, so Pentax or Ricoh had better hope that enough buyers don't want to give that up.
I think it is not worthwhile comparing today's full frame cameras to film cameras back in the day. You add a tilt screen that actually shows the image. you have a sensor with shift capability. You have all of the electronics necessary to run not only still photography, but also video. All of that comes at a weight price. Comparing a zoom to a prime isn't helpful either. You can still put a FA 43 on your K-1 and get a smaller package, it is just that zooms have come a long way.

Of course, you can compare the K-1 to MILCs, but I would simply say that the K-1's weight is mostly related to build. A Canon 6D (much more plasticky build) is 770 grams. Personally, I would rather have the tougher build, but opinions vary. My daughter owns a K-S1 which has a 100 pentaprism and weighs 558 grams. And it feels too light to me, so go figure...
03-02-2021, 05:47 PM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin B123 Quote
Are you a body builder?.

I was not suggesting this bag, just pointing out that the incremental differences between various marque of camera is lost in the total weight you carry when a bag like this is your regular kit.

I guess your bag will be somewhat lighter.
Ah, I see, I misinterpreted your post, sorry. My Protactic bag is a bit heavy, 2.84 kg just for the bag, so you are right!
03-02-2021, 10:42 PM   #45
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It's possible that it feels heavier, due to the distribution of the weight and how the grip is constructed/oriented, compared to other cameras.

I personally think the K-1 is heavy, but I've only compared it to the K-3, not to any other FF DSLRs. It hasn't stopped me from using it, but I wish it was lighter.
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