[biz-engineer]

After fiddling with JPEG style for image representation on the rear LCD with histogram close to a Raw histogram, I figure the Pentax style closest to Raw isn't "Natural" but the much less popular "Flat" profile. Do you confirm that observation, or is it just my subjective interpretation? Was this anywhere documented by Pentax/Ricoh ?

[BigMackCam]

There isn't really a raw look, as it's wholly dependent on the camera profile used, and the software rendering the image. For instance, open the file in Lightroom and RawTherapee respectively, and the image will look vastly different.

That said, shooting JPEG with a view to preserving highlight and shadow detail and maximising the opportunities for further adjustment is best done with a lower-contrast "flat" look. I do this with my Panasonic bridge camera... I shoot in the lowest contrast, flattest in-camera JPEG style, with sharpening and noise reduction set to minimum, then edit as required to get a decent-looking final image, including tone curve adjustments, sharpening, etc.

[Lowell Goudge]

There isn't really a raw look, as it's wholly dependent on the camera profile used, and the software rendering the image. For instance, open the file in Lightroom and RawTherapee respectively, and the image will look vastly different.

That said, shooting JPEG with a view to preserving highlight and shadow detail and maximising the opportunities for further adjustment in best done with a lower-contrast "flat" look. I do this with my Panasonic bridge camera... I shoot in the lowest contrast, flattest in-camera JPEG style, with sharpening and noise reduction set to minimum, then edit as required to get a decent-looking final image, including tone curve adjustments, sharpening, etc.

That is also the concept with highlight and shadow detail protection on Pentax cameras, where it uses the dynamic range of the sensor, which is 4-5 more stops than that of the jpeg output range of 11 stops (using a non linear 8 bit color depth) and then compressing / flattening this back to then11 stops of the jpeg output.

The issue is, when shooting in this mode there is a risk of getting color/hue banding if you need to post process further.

[StiffLegged]

If you aim to post-process, wouldn’t it be better to shoot raw or raw+jpeg in the first place?

[BigMackCam]

The issue is, when shooting in this mode there is a risk of getting color/hue banding if you need to post process further.

Yes, although this can be minimised almost to the point of eradication in most circumstances by converting the 8-bit JPEG image to a workspace with (much) greater bit-depth before making any adjustments. With that done, tools like GIMP and Photoshop will interpolate smoothly without much, if any, banding (I've never noticed any when doing this in GIMP).

If you aim to post-process, wouldn’t it be better to shoot raw or raw+jpeg in the first place?

Undoubtedly!

[Paul the Sunman]

JPEG is an end, not a means.

[BigMackCam]

JPEG is an end, not a means

... unless you're shooting a camera that doesn't offer raw capture (such as the Panasonic bridge camera I mentioned in my first response), or you're looking to maximise continuous capture frame rate... or your memory cards are nearly full and you need to make the the most of the remaining space... or you want a photo with all lens corrections pre-applied for quick transfer / easy editing on a mobile device with software that doesn't have lens profiles... or ... etc. etc.

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Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-05-2021 at 05:41 AM.

[pepperberry farm]

JPEG is an end, not a means.

or you are happy with the jpeg rendering and don't want/need to spend time in front of a screen processing RAW images....

[normhead]

After fiddling with JPEG style for image representation on the rear LCD with histogram close to a Raw histogram, I figure the Pentax style closest to Raw isn't "Natural" but the much less popular "Flat" profile. Do you confirm that observation, or is it just my subjective interpretation? Was this anywhere documented by Pentax/Ricoh ?

If consider that raw is the readout that gives you the most subject detail, in high contrast images raw gives you more. But the whole point of jpeg is to get a finished image right off the camera.

A raw image is an image that gives you the most to work with. So low contrast is it. You decide what you want to emphasize and what you want to leave buried in the shadows or blown out in the highlights.But the jpeg doesn't give you as much information to manipulate, so it doesn't really emulate raw. Trying to use a jpeg like a raw will cause banding and a host of other problems.

However if you are just considering jpeg to save space, the highest jpeg and low contrast setting will give you the most to work with. Go for the largest file possible,

[Serkevan]

Raw is just the uncooked ingredients. It will necessarily look flat and somewhat dark. "Natural" is with regards to skin tones and such, not to the sensor itself.


Personally, for a subdued image rendering I do use a punched-up "Flat" preset as I find it to be very pleasing.

[photoptimist]

Isn't the "flat" setting just a way to cram 14-bits of RAW pixel into an 8-bit JPEG pixel? It's not meant to be a "look." It's meant to be a simple data compression hack to ensure that shadow details (bits 9 through 14) of a RAW image are visible in the 8-bit JPEG output.

[house]

As mentioned a RAW file has no look. It can't even be viewed as an image without various transforms. As soon as an image is visible it's no longer a raw file but a "developed" file. The software doing the viewing necessarily applies some kind of look and this won't be identical across software.

I mostly shoot with the flat profile but have increased the contrast slightly. I rarely use the sooc jpegs but like how Rawtherapee renders the file with these settings. Rawtherapee attempts to match the jpeg embedded in the raw file so I get the starting point I want.

To get close to RAW clipping etc in the lcd preview you should use the flattest possible look or even use UNIWB (google it) but I find the latter to much of a hassle.

[BigMackCam]

I mostly shoot with the flat profile but have increased the contrast slightly. I rarely use the sooc jpegs but like how Rawtherapee renders the file with these settings. Rawtherapee attempts to match the jpeg embedded in the raw file so I get the starting point I want.

That's a great approach, and one I'd never thought of. Whenever I use the auto-matched tone curve feature in RT, the results always looks way too punchy - too much contrast and/or saturation. Shooting with the in-camera profile set to flat would tame that significantly, I imagine. Thanks for the tip - I'm going to have to try this!

[stevebrot]

After fiddling with JPEG style for image representation on the rear LCD with histogram close to a Raw histogram

Do tell, where does one get this Raw histogram? RawDigger can provide such, but anything provided by available RAW processors is fully interpreted.*


Steve

* A possible exception might using dcraw to create a linear TIFF.

[biz-engineer]

If you aim to post-process, wouldn’t it be better to shoot raw or raw+jpeg in the first place?

An histogram and "blinkies" can be enabled and displayed on top of LCD preview (live view), and those rely on selected jpeg style. When I used "bright" or even "natural" style and pushed exposure compensation, the highlight warning came earlier than when using the "flat" style. That means there was still some exposure headroom even with seeing blinking spots on the rear display with Bright and Natural styles.

---------- Post added 05-10-21 at 21:08 ----------

Isn't the "flat" setting just a way to cram 14-bits of RAW pixel into an 8-bit JPEG pixel?

I don't know if there is still a curve (other than a straight line) applied to the raw file for the "flat" style. If the contrast "curve" is a straight line, I can rely on a "flat" profile to expose up to the blinking limit to ETTR .

---------- Post added 05-10-21 at 21:14 ----------

Do tell, where does one get this Raw histogram?

The idea is to adjust the contrast level on the selected style , so that the camera indicate blown pixels at the same level of exposure that makes the raw data clipped.