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04-18-2016, 05:58 PM   #16
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While Barry and alaldram are correct in saying that a DNG can be opened in older versions of Adobe software the Adobe support for the camera profiles will be lacking. IMHO opening a DNG without the correct colour profile is a bit like opening a word document when you don't have the correct fonts installed - the document opens and you can read it (maybe) but it will require additional work just to get it looking correct. Adobe could provide updated "filters" for older Lightroom versions but instead offer only a separate utility for processing DNGs created in newer camera models. It is their prerogative to make money so this is one mechanism they choose to push users along the upgrade path (rather than just enticing us with enhancements and earning good will with backward support). I own a few versions of Lightroom and have shot DNG for several years but recently I have opted to move back to PEF. My reasons are varied but the most significant for me is the standard Lightroom behaviour of writing of XMP "sidecar" development data back into the original DNG. I would much rather have my originals stay original and not take the chance that they are corrupted during the write process (you can even make them (PEF) read-only to prevent an accidental deletion event).

I'm not a proponent one way or the other on DNG or PEF but I think it's important not to equate opening a DNG with supporting it correctly.

Hopefully I didn't just invite a flame war


Last edited by Hornet; 04-18-2016 at 07:37 PM.
04-18-2016, 09:23 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hornet Quote
It is highly unlikely that the K-1 DNG files created in camera will be readable in Lightroom 5.x, See this Adobe page:
https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html
to get a better understanding of how Adobe keeps you on the LR upgrade path by not providing support for newer cameras. For example note that the DNG and PEF files of the K3II work only with Lightroom V6.1.1 and higher.

You will be able to use the standalone DNG converter once the K-1 profile has been added to the latest version. In the meantime only the Pentax software will read these files.
What you have said is simply not true. I had zero problems using Elements 9 (an older version of Elements) to read and develop a K-1 DNG under the older ACR that Elements supports. If a cripple ware program like Elements supports it - both Lightroom and full Photoshop certainly will.

---------- Post added 04-18-16 at 11:48 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Hornet Quote
While Barry and alaldram are correct in saying that a DNG can be opened in older versions of Adobe software the Adobe support for the camera profiles will be lacking. IMHO opening a DNG without the correct colour profile is a bit like opening a word document when you don't have the correct fonts installed - the document opens and you can read it (maybe) but it will require additional work just to get it looking correct. Adobe could provide updated "filters" for older Lightroom versions but instead offer only a separate utility for processing DNGs created in newer camera models. It is their prerogative to make money so this is one mechanism they choose to push users along the upgrade path (rather than just enticing us with enhancements and earning good will with backward support). I own a few versions of Lightroom and have shot DNG for several years but recently I have opted to move back to PEF. My reasons are varied but the most significant for me is the standard Lightroom behaviour of writing of XMP "sidecar" development data back into the original DNG. I would much rather have my originals stay original and not take the chance that they are corrupted during the write process (you can even make them (PEF) read-only to prevent an accidental deletion event).

I'm not a proponent one way or the other on DNG or PEF but I think it's important not to equate opening a DNG with supporting it correctly.

Hopefully I didn't just invite a flame war
I'm sorry, I think you don't understand what you are talking about. The profiles you discuss are only there to produce the same look as the in camera JPGs have got. Why in the world would anyone want to turn out something that looks exactly like what the camera already produces by it self - when doing raw processing? The whole point of using RAW files is that they are just that - RAW files - which have the pixel levels only and leave it up to the person developing the photo as to what filtering - if any - is to be done on those files to turn out the final product.

The sidecar files can be defeated by proper keystrokes when using the ACR plugins. In any case the DNGs aren't touched by ACR and remain as the camera produced them - only the manipulations go in the sidecar files.

---------- Post added 04-19-16 at 12:21 AM ----------

By the way - I don't particularly like ACR as a raw development program. Adobe does a lot of default filtering of every raw file the program develops; it is very difficult to get it to show the flat file that the camera captured. Camera manufacturers each have their opinions of the way they think pictures ought to look. Adobe has its opinion on the subject. It was only when I started using UFraw and saw an unfiltered honest view of what the camera actually captured that my ability to process the raw file - into what I wanted the picture to look like - improved.

When people use the X-rite color correction system they are not actually calibrating their cameras - which are very precise photometric devices - they are actually calibrating out all the filtering that ACR does.

Last edited by HoustonBob; 04-19-2016 at 06:24 AM.
04-18-2016, 10:39 PM   #18
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Dear HoustonBob perhaps I am incorrect in using the word "profiles" to describe the various camera-specific values that aid interpretation of the RAW data as it is read in. I will point out that the link I included is the official support page from Adobe listing the the minimum versions of ACR and LR that are deemed compatible with various camera models.
QuoteQuote:
The table below lists all cameras that the Camera Raw plug-in (versions 1.0 through 9.5) and Lightroom (versions 1.0 through 6.5) support.
BTW was trying to point out that the "sidecar" data are not created as separate files next to DNGs in LR but rather are written directly into the DNG file.
04-19-2016, 12:32 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hornet Quote
Dear HoustonBob perhaps I am incorrect in using the word "profiles" to describe the various camera-specific values that aid interpretation of the RAW data as it is read in. I will point out that the link I included is the official support page from Adobe listing the the minimum versions of ACR and LR that are deemed compatible with various camera models.
Here is a post to my blog explaining why DNG is the only archival raw file format.

The relevance is that one of the criteria for an archival file format is to be able to process the image using just the specification of the file format. But not needing the specification of the camera nor examination of it.

As the blog post shows, necessary information about the camera needed for a high quality raw conversion are held within the DNG file, in the form of a large amount of meta data.

That is a problem with raw file formats other than DNG: they leave a lot to be learned, typically by examination of a camera. It is why, when Pentax release a new camera, raw converter developers typically need to examine the camera, (or at least get hold of some PEFs), in order to develop their raw converter to support that camera's PEFs. (The same applies to NEF, CR2, and other raw file formats). But the raw converter developer can (if they choose) understand from the open DNG specification what is held within a DNG file, and exploit that without needing to examine the camera.

ps: I am not contradicting Adobe with wild speculation. Some key people in Adobe know of me and my published material about DNG. I've had Thomas Knoll look at and agree with one or two of my pages. Adobe themselves have used some of my material.


Last edited by Barry Pearson; 04-19-2016 at 12:40 AM.
04-19-2016, 01:29 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hornet Quote
standard Lightroom behaviour of writing of XMP "sidecar" development data back into the original DNG
I'm fairly sure this only happens when you 'save metadata' and in normal use the 'edit' changes are only stored in the .lrcat database file. I just checked with a downloaded K1 dng that was set as 'readonly' and made some adjustments in LR, exited and on restart the adjustments are still there, but the dng file is unchanged. The K1 dng worked perfectly in LR.
04-19-2016, 06:19 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Here is a post to my blog explaining why DNG is the only archival raw file format.

The relevance is that one of the criteria for an archival file format is to be able to process the image using just the specification of the file format. But not needing the specification of the camera nor examination of it.

As the blog post shows, necessary information about the camera needed for a high quality raw conversion are held within the DNG file, in the form of a large amount of meta data.

That is a problem with raw file formats other than DNG: they leave a lot to be learned, typically by examination of a camera. It is why, when Pentax release a new camera, raw converter developers typically need to examine the camera, (or at least get hold of some PEFs), in order to develop their raw converter to support that camera's PEFs. (The same applies to NEF, CR2, and other raw file formats). But the raw converter developer can (if they choose) understand from the open DNG specification what is held within a DNG file, and exploit that without needing to examine the camera.

ps: I am not contradicting Adobe with wild speculation. Some key people in Adobe know of me and my published material about DNG. I've had Thomas Knoll look at and agree with one or two of my pages. Adobe themselves have used some of my material.
Nailed it. This is why the older version of ACR and UFraw are both able to process K-1 DNGs, everything necessary to process the DNG is stored in the DNG if the raw converter was written by somebody who knows what they are doing.
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