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04-28-2016, 08:21 AM   #31
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I'm confused by the response above. I never saw anyone insinuate legal misconduct by Sigma. If I missed that whoops!

Reverse engineering is typically permitted. And reversing a protocol without outright copying means that subtle miscues can occur that can cause strange behaviors, but most of the time things work.

04-28-2016, 08:50 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I never saw anyone insinuate legal misconduct by Sigma.
The insinuation is that Sigma avoids paying licensing fees.

If the use of some technology requires a licence (we do not know whether this is currently true for the very old K-mount specifications we are talking about here) then, to the best of my knowledge, you cannot legally circumvent the payment of a licensing fee simply by doing your own-reverse engineering. One would still be infringing on patents.

There are certainly examples for technologies where licensing fees / royalties are enforced and one cannot legally escape such enforcement by just finding one's own way of implementing the functionality.

I'd ask where you get the idea from that "reverse engineering is typically permitted", but I'm not that interested in the legal side of things. I just wanted to object to allegations / insinuations that are most likely unwarranted.
04-28-2016, 09:02 AM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by funktionsfrei Quote
Well, thanks for all the tips and hints. I clearly wasn't aware of Sigma's somewhat checkered compatibility history, maybe due to pure luck on my side.

Thanks to "disasterfilm", that's an avenue I'll check. No, the lens was never serviced, and yes, LV focusing on the K-5 was lousy at best (and here enters my ignorance, I plainly didn't use LV that much until now, until I've had a K-1 in hands somewhen a month ago, where I noticed that LV could work pretty well). So that's not a mediocre LV AF, but a [expletive omitted] lens compatibility issue.
I'm already curious on Sigma's reaction to that.
For me, the symptoms of firmware problems on the HSM II with the K-5iis weren't mediocre autofocus. It wouldn't focus at all. In live view it would rip through the focus range twice then return to minimum focusing distance, with the AF square blinking red to indicate lack of lock. Regardless of availability of light, subject, and distance, it did the same thing.

If you can wait about a week, I'll know for sure whether the firmware update sidesteps the issues that you're having.

We're all in fact-finding mode, and for me part of the joy of a brand new camera format is going to be the process of discovery. It was uplifting when we started to hear that the K-1 autofocus engine has improved from its predecessors. It's disheartening to hear that things may not work flawlessly at the onset... especially for a FF feature lens like a 70-200 f/2,8. And if the camera isn't even functional - manual focusing is out of question - all the more cause for alarm.

In terms of frustration, I'm going to choose to be calm and patient about this. I've got a bag full of Sigma lenses, and my short recent dealings with their customer service have been very smooth and positive. They took great care of me before, during, and after that firmware update, and I'm sure they're called into action to respond to these new issues. They've treated me very well as a customer, so I'd like to return that grace to them now that they're in a tough situation.
04-28-2016, 06:22 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
Take it from someone who has repaired many Sigmas (just got done with an EX DG 100mm f/2.8 macro, as a matter of fact), they absolutely do cut corners.
Two comments and then I can hopefully stay away from this discussion:
  1. One has to distinguish between the old Sigma which released pretty terrible lenses at very low prices and the new Sigma which is competing with OEMs and sometimes even surpasses them. There is no Sigma 100mm macro (perhaps you meant the 105mm) so I don't know what lens you are talking about. The fact that you had to repair one does not say a lot either. Lenses develop faults, it happens. Even FA Limiteds can fall apart in a user's hand due to inappropriate thread-locking of screws. It happened. More than once.
  2. Some corner cutting is normal. It is called engineering. The problem starts when people jump at a manufacturer with preconceived ideas and unproven hypotheses. All my Sigma lenses have been exemplary in their reliability and performance. The SDM (Sudden Death Motor) issue, on the other hand, is a Pentax phenomenon, not a Sigma phenomenon.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that Sigma settled for "good enough" with the implementation of the firmware for the 70-200, having had no reason to believe that it would become a camera freezer one day in the future. The fact that Sigma could have done more pre-emptively or may have even dropped the ball to some extent does not prove that Sigma is a shoddy company or that any buyer choosing third-party equipment ought to expect this kind of stuff to happen.

None of us know whether the change in behaviour of the K-1 compared to previous Pentax DSLR with respect to the Sigma 70-200/2.8 was really warranted due to the need to support new functionality. I don't think we have heard of respective improvements to the AF system and many people frequently overstate the role of a lens in AF or even freezing a camera. The lens does not contain any "AF algorithms", nor does it assume any kind of control. I'm not saying Pentax gratuitously changed the protocol a bit to try and break some third-party lenses and I'm not saying Sigma did everything they could have done to avoid the problem at hand. None of us should be jumping to conclusions.

What everyone should be agreeing on is that the camera should not freeze, no matter what (excluding entirely unreasonable power drains, which we can probably exclude in this case). Perhaps someday a genuine Pentax lens develops an intermittent contact problem, leading to a similar communication problem. That should not freeze the camera either.

04-29-2016, 01:10 PM   #35
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I encounter the same issue: my K-1 and my Sigma 70-200/2.8 Macro II do not work together.
The focus is erratic, the lens causes a freezing of the K-1 when I want to switch it off.

Bad news.
04-29-2016, 02:34 PM   #36
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A small addendum to the list of Sigma lenses I've tested

10-20/4-5.6 DC (screwdrive AF) - works

In FF mode there's severe vignetting on the shorter end and less vignetting on the longer end, from 14mm on it's not so bad.
04-29-2016, 03:45 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by tryphon4 Quote
I encounter the same issue: my K-1 and my Sigma 70-200/2.8 Macro II do not work together.
The focus is erratic, the lens causes a freezing of the K-1 when I want to switch it off.

Bad news.


Yes, very bad news. Several members on this site indicated intent to buy this lens in advance of a K-1 purchase. Sorry you got caught up short. Is it usable for manual focus?

I am curious as to how your lens identifies itself in the EXIF. There are two variants in this regard. The first identifies itself as "8 16" and is displayed with no confusion as Sigma 70-200/2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II or something similar. The second identifies as "8 255", a code shared in common with several other Sigma lenses.
04-29-2016, 03:51 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The lens does not contain any "AF algorithms", nor does it assume any kind of control.
It controls itself* in response to body commands and reports its state back to the body. If a value is out of range or inappropriate in type or timing, the camera might be thrown into an infinite control loop with the lens or become deadlocked waiting for a confirmation flag that never comes.


Steve

* Good indication of this might be that recently-released Sigma lenses may have their AF calibration fine-tuned using the Sigma USB Dock device.


Last edited by stevebrot; 04-29-2016 at 03:56 PM.
04-30-2016, 02:04 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
s it usable for manual focus?
The lens I've described makes the camera freeze immediately upon being attached. So it can be used as a rather heavy body cap only.

Oh, and yes, it's a "8 255" lens. Exiftool (and Lightoom) correctly identifies it as "Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II".


I'm trying to get in contact with Sigma on that.
04-30-2016, 04:42 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Two comments and then I can hopefully stay away from this discussion:
  1. One has to distinguish between the old Sigma which released pretty terrible lenses at very low prices and the new Sigma which is competing with OEMs and sometimes even surpasses them. There is no Sigma 100mm macro (perhaps you meant the 105mm) so I don't know what lens you are talking about. The fact that you had to repair one does not say a lot either. Lenses develop faults, it happens. Even FA Limiteds can fall apart in a user's hand due to inappropriate thread-locking of screws. It happened. More than once.
  2. Some corner cutting is normal. It is called engineering. The problem starts when people jump at a manufacturer with preconceived ideas and unproven hypotheses. All my Sigma lenses have been exemplary in their reliability and performance. The SDM (Sudden Death Motor) issue, on the other hand, is a Pentax phenomenon, not a Sigma phenomenon.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that Sigma settled for "good enough" with the implementation of the firmware for the 70-200, having had no reason to believe that it would become a camera freezer one day in the future. The fact that Sigma could have done more pre-emptively or may have even dropped the ball to some extent does not prove that Sigma is a shoddy company or that any buyer choosing third-party equipment ought to expect this kind of stuff to happen.

None of us know whether the change in behaviour of the K-1 compared to previous Pentax DSLR with respect to the Sigma 70-200/2.8 was really warranted due to the need to support new functionality. I don't think we have heard of respective improvements to the AF system and many people frequently overstate the role of a lens in AF or even freezing a camera. The lens does not contain any "AF algorithms", nor does it assume any kind of control. I'm not saying Pentax gratuitously changed the protocol a bit to try and break some third-party lenses and I'm not saying Sigma did everything they could have done to avoid the problem at hand. None of us should be jumping to conclusions.

What everyone should be agreeing on is that the camera should not freeze, no matter what (excluding entirely unreasonable power drains, which we can probably exclude in this case). Perhaps someday a genuine Pentax lens develops an intermittent contact problem, leading to a similar communication problem. That should not freeze the camera either.
You're making a mountain out of a molehill by reading into things that are not there and then responding in book form supporting your claims.

Who said Sigma was a shoddy company? dc said they cut corners.. I'm pretty sure they do. That doesn't mean the company is shoddy nor do I discern he is saying that from his statements. He seems to make effort to avoid the response you provided.

We are all agreeing the camera should not freeze. However, with a third party lens, the ball is in the third party's court to make it work since they reverse engineer them to function with Pentax (and every other brand). Pentax has no obligation to make it work.

Lens purchases are the big item for DSLR manufacturers.. the body is the loss leader to get you in the system to buy the pricey lenses. Do you really think they are going to work hard to cut their noses off by spending resources to get 3rd party lenses to function better? No no.. this is a Sigma issue and Sigma needs to address it.

In short, When you buy any third party item, there is NO guarantee of support from the 1st party with the use of the 3rd party item in conjunction with 1st party items. IF they are gracious enough to look at 3rd party functionality, then GREAT. But there is no requirement for them to do so.

If you want that level of support, buy 1st party lenses for the 1st party body. (That is, buy Pentax branded lenses)

Last edited by mee; 04-30-2016 at 06:07 AM.
04-30-2016, 07:53 AM   #41
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This is very troubling to me.....my most used lens is my Bigma 50-500 HSM OS...and if it doesn't work on my K1 I will have to question the need for the K1?

Well over 90% of what I shoot is with this lens. I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

Regards!
04-30-2016, 09:26 AM   #42
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Tried both the Sigma 105mm f/2.8 DG Macro, and Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO Tele Macro.
They work better than ever! AF is so confident in this camera, neither lens hunts like they do on my K-5 and *ist DS.

edit: Sigma 24-60 f/2.8 EX DG works - no speed increase on this one, but it works okay.

Last edited by Mock; 04-30-2016 at 09:43 AM.
04-30-2016, 09:40 AM   #43
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I own the Sigma 70-200 HSM II (8 255 designation) and I find the issue very troubling. Ever since I bought the lens I was looking forward to using it on a FF camera and to realise that it actually may not work on the camera at all is extremely disappointing. I firmly believe that such behavior of the camera is completely unacceptable, especially because I know that the lens can operate without any issues on other Pentax camera bodies.

Judging by user reports submitted here, I suspect that the problem may lie in the Sigma's HSM focusing, since none of the users reported any issues with screwdriven lenses.

Could anyone here test some other HSM lens for compatibility issues???
04-30-2016, 09:47 AM   #44
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One thing to keep in mind is there were many reports of this lens not working with earlier bodies. A Sigma firmware update seems to have solved that. And the OP reporting this problem noted he had not updated the firmware on his lens.

So while this might be a problem it could also already be fixed if users have updated the lens firmware.

Without verification of the firmware version nothing can be certain yet but if people with the problem would also post the Sigma firmware version it might help track things down.
04-30-2016, 01:27 PM   #45
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I have the K-1 preordered, but the Sigma 70-200 HSM Macro II issue is definitely concerning since I was planning on using this lens extensively. Hopefully this is resolved soon; if not, I have a big expensive paperweight.
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