K-1 3rd-party lens compatibility

Class A · 05-02-2016, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Ptitboul

It is possible that all faulty lenses are "8 255".

I'm wondering whether it is possible to load the EEPROM data of such a lens, modify the lens ID data to 8 16, and then write back the modified EEPROM data.

The same technique can be used to turn a (dual-drive) SDM lens into a screw-drive lens.

It is possible that it is only the lens ID of the offending Sigma lens that causes the K-1 to trip up (e.g., if it is used for indexing). In this case, the problem could be fixable without waiting for Sigma or Ricoh.

Finding the right place to modify in the lens ROM shouldn't be too hard by cross-checking the occurrence of fitting data values with other lenses (e.g. the comparable versions with a 8 16 ID).

Anyone up for some detective work? Happy to help, but we need the respective EEPROM data.

Last edited by Class A; 05-02-2016 at 04:01 PM.

stevebrot · 05-02-2016, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Anyone up for some detective work? Happy to help, but we need the respective EEPROM data.

Anyone have a Sigma lens they are willing to "brick"? FWIW, I would be very surprised if Sigma has a lens EEPROM api that is accessible from Pentax debug mode. One never knows, however!

Steve

stevebrot · 05-02-2016, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Ptitboul

It is possible that all faulty lenses are "8 255".

That was my first thought when I read the original post. One of the easiest ways to "confuse" a piece of software is to present ambiguous/mixed signals. Perhaps the Sigma is "rooting" the K-1

(...just kidding...)

Steve

Class A · 05-02-2016, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Anyone have a Sigma lens they are willing to "brick"?

There is no danger of "bricking" the lens, if one keeps a copy of the original lens data.

Originally posted by stevebrot

FWIW, I would be very surprised if Sigma has a lens EEPROM api that is accessible from Pentax debug mode.

It would seem more logical to me if were possible to read out the Sigma lens EEPROM than if it weren't possible. Perhaps I'll try it later with one of my lenses.

Enigmaticca · 05-03-2016, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Ptitboul

Originally posted by dcpropilot

Here's the raw output from exiftool.exe:

(...)
Lens ID : Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II or Sigma 50-150mm F2.8 II APO EX DC HSM

This information is sufficient to tell that it is a "8 255" lens.

The reason is that many Sigma lenses say that they are "8 255", and ExifTool tries to guess which it is by looking at the focal length and aperture. In your case, ExifTool narrowed it to two possibilities.
However, there is only one model that says it is "8 16". Therefore your lens is not "8 16", it would have been detected as 70-200.

Not quite correct. Not all Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II are "8 255". My lens Identifies itself as:

Lens ID: Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II
LensType: 8 16

Class A · 05-03-2016, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

FWIW, I would be very surprised if Sigma has a lens EEPROM api that is accessible from Pentax debug mode.

I had a go at reading out the lens EEPROM of several lenses.

I'm afraid it's not good news. The lens ID and other parameters do not appear to be accessible via the lens EEPROM readout interface. My Sigma 100-300/4 EX returned a number of values but they don't appear to make much sense. However, the values returned by the FA 50/1.4 made even less sense (they were all the same). The only lens I tried that returned reasonable data was my Tamron 18-250.

So it seems that either a number of lenses (genuine Pentax or not, does not make a difference) do not support the lens EEPROM readout interface of the debug menu properly or, -- more likely, AFAIC -- the data (e.g., the lens ID) is accessed through other means.

stevebrot · 05-03-2016, 08:46 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Enigmaticca

Not quite correct. Not all Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II are "8 255".

You are right, but so is Ptitboul. Read his comment carefully again.

The situation is fairly clearcut regarding lens id codes, though it is not always clear how those are handled by ExifTool and other software. An executive summary goes something like this:

The EXIF data for the Pentax makernotes do not include the actual lens model names. Instead, there is a numeric id code. This code is read from the lens by the camera body.
According to the ExifTool developers, two id codes are known for the Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II. The codes are "8 16" and "8 255".
Code "8 16" is unambiguous and is known from this model lens only
Code "8 255" is also known for five other Sigma lens models. Those lenses are:
- Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG APO [OS] HSM
- Sigma 50-150mm F2.8 II APO EX DC HSM
- Sigma 4.5mm F2.8 EX DC HSM Circular Fisheye
- Sigma 50-200mm F4-5.6 DC OS
- Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM
The descriptive lens name in the ExifTool results is taken from a lookup table and is usually the same as the manufacturer's model name
Where the id code is ambiguous, ExifTool will do its best to give some notion of which lens is present. In the case of "8 255" the fallback would be "Sigma Lens" unless it is possible to narrow the choices down by some other means, hence the result of "thislens or thatlens".
The behavior in the above point is better than nothing, but I am not sure it is a good idea.*
An ambiguity in lens id code may create significant problems for a camera body that tailors its AF (or other) behavior on a per lens basis
There are numerous cases where both Sigma and other 3rd-party lenses provide ambiguous id codes. Often times, the lens is attempting to masquerade as a Pentax lens, but in this case, "8 255" is only used by Sigma.

I think that about covers it.

Steve

* If it had been up to me, I would have used "Unknown Sigma Lens" or something similar and left it at that.

xmeda · 05-03-2016, 08:46 AM

Sig 70-200HSM II had its problems in past while trying to do live-view focusing on K5. It just went through whole range without lock. Lens firmware update fixed that..

Are your 70-200s focusing properly in live-view on other pentax cameras? If not, update lens firmware. If they work and problem is only with K-1, then lets investigate.

**Papa Lazarou** · 05-03-2016, 08:57 AM

My 70-200 HSM II works perfectly on K-3, only having issues on K-1.

**fs999** · 05-03-2016, 09:46 AM

The Sigma 8-16 has code "8 18" and works well.
My Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG APO HSM (non OS) has code "8 255".

stevebrot · 05-03-2016, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by fs999

My Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG APO HSM (non OS) has code "8 255".

How is the 150-500 on your K-1?

Steve

**fs999** · 05-03-2016, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

How is the 150-500 on your K-1?

Freezing the K-1.
I have found a way to take one photo : I release a little bit the lens, turn the lens on MF and the K-1 on. Then I try to manual focus and just before shooting I lock the lens back...

stevebrot · 05-03-2016, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by fs999

Freezing the K-1.
I have found a way to take one photo : I release a little bit the lens, turn the lens on MF and the K-1 on. Then I try to manual focus and just before shooting I lock the lens back...

Insulating the data pin on the mount might also work. No AF, but at least you would be able to use the lens.

Steve

Enigmaticca · 05-03-2016, 09:28 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by stevebrot

You are right, but so is Ptitboul. Read his comment carefully again.

[...]

Noted thank you.

-

My K-1 arrived this morning. It is with much relief that I can report that the following Sigma lenses works perfectly:

17-35mm F2.8-4 EX DG - "3 44" (Generic Sigma)
24-70mm F2.8 IF EX DG HSM - "8 255" (Generic Sigma)
70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II - "8 16"
50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM - "8 17"
&
35mm F1.4 DG HSM - "8 29"

rawr · 05-03-2016, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Enigmaticca

70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II - "8 16"
35mm F1.4 DG HSM - "8 29"

Very good to hear!, since I have those two Sigma's.

Maybe the Oz Sigma's have newer firmware that the others we've heard about in this thread.?

Now I'm running out of excuses for delaying my K-1 order ...

05-03-2016, 08:46 AM - 1 Like	#82
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Enigmaticca Not quite correct. Not all Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II are "8 255". You are right, but so is Ptitboul. Read his comment carefully again. The situation is fairly clearcut regarding lens id codes, though it is not always clear how those are handled by ExifTool and other software. An executive summary goes something like this: The EXIF data for the Pentax makernotes do not include the actual lens model names. Instead, there is a numeric id code. This code is read from the lens by the camera body. According to the ExifTool developers, two id codes are known for the Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II. The codes are "8 16" and "8 255". Code "8 16" is unambiguous and is known from this model lens only Code "8 255" is also known for five other Sigma lens models. Those lenses are: Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG APO [OS] HSM Sigma 50-150mm F2.8 II APO EX DC HSM Sigma 4.5mm F2.8 EX DC HSM Circular Fisheye Sigma 50-200mm F4-5.6 DC OS Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM The descriptive lens name in the ExifTool results is taken from a lookup table and is usually the same as the manufacturer's model name Where the id code is ambiguous, ExifTool will do its best to give some notion of which lens is present. In the case of "8 255" the fallback would be "Sigma Lens" unless it is possible to narrow the choices down by some other means, hence the result of "thislens or thatlens". The behavior in the above point is better than nothing, but I am not sure it is a good idea.* An ambiguity in lens id code may create significant problems for a camera body that tailors its AF (or other) behavior on a per lens basis There are numerous cases where both Sigma and other 3rd-party lenses provide ambiguous id codes. Often times, the lens is attempting to masquerade as a Pentax lens, but in this case, "8 255" is only used by Sigma. I think that about covers it. Steve * If it had been up to me, I would have used "Unknown Sigma Lens" or something similar and left it at that.

05-03-2016, 09:28 PM - 3 Likes	#89
Enigmaticca Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 311	Originally posted by stevebrot You are right, but so is Ptitboul. Read his comment carefully again. [...] Noted thank you. - My K-1 arrived this morning. It is with much relief that I can report that the following Sigma lenses works perfectly: 17-35mm F2.8-4 EX DG - "3 44" (Generic Sigma) 24-70mm F2.8 IF EX DG HSM - "8 255" (Generic Sigma) 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II - "8 16" 50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM - "8 17" & 35mm F1.4 DG HSM - "8 29"

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05-02-2016, 12:22 PM	#76
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Ptitboul It is possible that all faulty lenses are "8 255". I'm wondering whether it is possible to load the EEPROM data of such a lens, modify the lens ID data to 8 16, and then write back the modified EEPROM data. The same technique can be used to turn a (dual-drive) SDM lens into a screw-drive lens. It is possible that it is only the lens ID of the offending Sigma lens that causes the K-1 to trip up (e.g., if it is used for indexing). In this case, the problem could be fixable without waiting for Sigma or Ricoh. Finding the right place to modify in the lens ROM shouldn't be too hard by cross-checking the occurrence of fitting data values with other lenses (e.g. the comparable versions with a 8 16 ID). Anyone up for some detective work? Happy to help, but we need the respective EEPROM data. Last edited by Class A; 05-02-2016 at 04:01 PM.

05-02-2016, 04:56 PM	#77
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Class A Anyone up for some detective work? Happy to help, but we need the respective EEPROM data. Anyone have a Sigma lens they are willing to "brick"? FWIW, I would be very surprised if Sigma has a lens EEPROM api that is accessible from Pentax debug mode. One never knows, however! Steve

05-02-2016, 04:59 PM	#78
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Ptitboul It is possible that all faulty lenses are "8 255". That was my first thought when I read the original post. One of the easiest ways to "confuse" a piece of software is to present ambiguous/mixed signals. Perhaps the Sigma is "rooting" the K-1 (...just kidding...) Steve

05-02-2016, 11:51 PM	#79
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by stevebrot Anyone have a Sigma lens they are willing to "brick"? There is no danger of "bricking" the lens, if one keeps a copy of the original lens data. Originally posted by stevebrot FWIW, I would be very surprised if Sigma has a lens EEPROM api that is accessible from Pentax debug mode. It would seem more logical to me if were possible to read out the Sigma lens EEPROM than if it weren't possible. Perhaps I'll try it later with one of my lenses.

05-03-2016, 01:27 AM	#80
Enigmaticca Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 311	Originally posted by Ptitboul Originally posted by dcpropilot Here's the raw output from exiftool.exe: (...) Lens ID : Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II or Sigma 50-150mm F2.8 II APO EX DC HSM This information is sufficient to tell that it is a "8 255" lens. The reason is that many Sigma lenses say that they are "8 255", and ExifTool tries to guess which it is by looking at the focal length and aperture. In your case, ExifTool narrowed it to two possibilities. However, there is only one model that says it is "8 16". Therefore your lens is not "8 16", it would have been detected as 70-200. Not quite correct. Not all Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II are "8 255". My lens Identifies itself as: Lens ID: Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II LensType: 8 16

05-03-2016, 08:05 AM	#81
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by stevebrot FWIW, I would be very surprised if Sigma has a lens EEPROM api that is accessible from Pentax debug mode. I had a go at reading out the lens EEPROM of several lenses. I'm afraid it's not good news. The lens ID and other parameters do not appear to be accessible via the lens EEPROM readout interface. My Sigma 100-300/4 EX returned a number of values but they don't appear to make much sense. However, the values returned by the FA 50/1.4 made even less sense (they were all the same). The only lens I tried that returned reasonable data was my Tamron 18-250. So it seems that either a number of lenses (genuine Pentax or not, does not make a difference) do not support the lens EEPROM readout interface of the debug menu properly or, -- more likely, AFAIC -- the data (e.g., the lens ID) is accessed through other means.

05-03-2016, 08:46 AM	#83
xmeda Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Brno Posts: 295	Sig 70-200HSM II had its problems in past while trying to do live-view focusing on K5. It just went through whole range without lock. Lens firmware update fixed that.. Are your 70-200s focusing properly in live-view on other pentax cameras? If not, update lens firmware. If they work and problem is only with K-1, then lets investigate.

05-03-2016, 08:57 AM	#84
Papa Lazarou Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, UK Posts: 340	My 70-200 HSM II works perfectly on K-3, only having issues on K-1.

05-03-2016, 09:46 AM	#85
fs999 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Luxembourg Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,629	The Sigma 8-16 has code "8 18" and works well. My Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG APO HSM (non OS) has code "8 255".

05-03-2016, 10:23 AM	#86
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by fs999 My Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG APO HSM (non OS) has code "8 255". How is the 150-500 on your K-1? Steve

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05-03-2016, 10:56 AM	#87
fs999 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Luxembourg Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,629	Originally posted by stevebrot How is the 150-500 on your K-1? Freezing the K-1. I have found a way to take one photo : I release a little bit the lens, turn the lens on MF and the K-1 on. Then I try to manual focus and just before shooting I lock the lens back...

05-03-2016, 01:35 PM	#88
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by fs999 Freezing the K-1. I have found a way to take one photo : I release a little bit the lens, turn the lens on MF and the K-1 on. Then I try to manual focus and just before shooting I lock the lens back... Insulating the data pin on the mount might also work. No AF, but at least you would be able to use the lens. Steve

05-03-2016, 10:00 PM	#90
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Enigmaticca 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II - "8 16" 35mm F1.4 DG HSM - "8 29" Very good to hear!, since I have those two Sigma's. Maybe the Oz Sigma's have newer firmware that the others we've heard about in this thread.? Now I'm running out of excuses for delaying my K-1 order ...