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06-26-2016, 07:10 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote

Of course if Pentax released an apsc with a stop or better noise performance that would change the equation considerably.
I still reckon the ideal APSC Pentax is probally 2-3 years away (bit better focus tracking, iso performance, flippy screen etc)..... then I'll probally be really conflicted on a daily basis as to what Camera to take with me (Pentax FF or APSC)

06-28-2016, 04:04 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
ABSOLUTELY!


What I find funny about people saying that "This is what FF can do" is that they never seem to realize that all that has also been done with crop as well. It's just that you happened to come across an example of it done with FF. If you are a bad photographer, FF is just going to help you make more expensive bad photographs, and lessons, study and practice will be far more effective than buying any gear to improve your work.


Look at what Damien Lovegrove Home - ProPhotoNut does with Fuji crop cameras, FF is definitely NOT the factor that matters when trying to do this work.


Don't get me wrong, I like having the option available should I ever find myself needing it, and anything that breaths life into Pentax's coffers is a plus as long as it doesn't come at the expense of the APS-c system.

Full frame gives you a shallow DOF compared to a crop sensor which is why it is easier to do a picture like this on a full frame body.
06-29-2016, 12:15 AM - 2 Likes   #48
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I used Pentax FF film SLRs from 1967 to 2004. I used at least 6 different models.
I used Pentax APS-C digital SLRs from 2004 to 2016. I used 6 flagships, including the K-3II.
I like to think I can tackle most subjects with the K-3II.

Now I used the K-1 exclusively. I go to an event with more confidence. I take fewer photos "just in case", because I don't expect to need them. I end up with more keepers, and often better keepers.

I wouldn't try to justify using the K-1 on the grounds that there are things I can do with it than I couldn't do with a K-3II. There probably aren't any.

But neither would I want to go back to using the K-3II. It stays in my car in case my K-1 breaks. For me, the K-1 is simply a better photographic tool that enables me to achieve better things in practice. I don't care much why I'm getting better results!
06-29-2016, 01:44 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
But neither would I want to go back to using the K-3II. It stays in my car in case my K-1 breaks. For me, the K-1 is simply a better photographic tool that enables me to achieve better things in practice. I don't care much why I'm getting better results!
very reasonable if it makes life easier, why bother finding out technical terms behind it, just enjoy the tool

06-29-2016, 01:49 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
I don't care much why I'm getting better results!
Me too!
06-29-2016, 01:52 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
And I could care less that you could care less...


It's not about replicating anything. It's about seeing any kind of difference between the two, other than theoretically and mathematically in practical everyday photographic results.


I'm glad you are convinced FF is going to solve all your problems. For most it's going to make no difference whatsoever, except be heavier, cost more and eat up hard drive space.


Back in the film days, most people didn't argue that they needed medium format, 35mm did what they needed it to do. Today, Aps-c far exceeds the possibilities of anything 35mm film was capable of, yet people seem to think they all need FF to solve some mythical shortcomings of APS-c. Yes, the emperor is missing some garments... sorry.


With all due respect it is easy to see the difference. Take a full frame lens and put it on a full frame body. Use a tripod and take a picture. Any picture. It doesn't really matter. Now take the same lens and put it on a crop sensor and take the same picture. The difference is obvious due to the size of the sensor.


Also, it isn't just about eating up more hard drive space. That is something a person says when they don't understand the advantage of having extra megapixels. This means you get more detail. I could be mistaken but I doubt a crop sensor will ever go above 24mp. At least not now with the technology currently available. So yeah you get more detail in your pictures with full frame.


The advantage of crop sensors comes into play when you are talking about shooting wildlife with a long telephoto lens. Then the crop sensor actually has more pixel density.
06-30-2016, 12:29 AM - 1 Like   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Back in the film days, most people didn't argue that they needed medium format, 35mm did what they needed it to do. .
Way back in the film days, (I started using 35mm in 1963), people used to argue about what film to use, what developer and developing technique to use, etc. There was never a point at which people agreed that "we have all we want, we don't need any further progress".

You used an important word: "most". That leaves the rest who did argue! And that remains the case. Most people probably won't see benefit from FF. But that doesn't rule out the rest who will.

People who are comfortable in the "won't see the benefit" category shouldn't over-generalise and assume that the same applies to everyone. Just as people who are comfortable with Micro Four Thirds shouldn't assume that no one will benefit from APS-C.
06-30-2016, 12:35 AM - 1 Like   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by AwesomeIan Quote
Take a full frame lens and put it on a full frame body. Use a tripod and take a picture. Any picture. It doesn't really matter. Now take the same lens and put it on a crop sensor and take the same picture. The difference is obvious due to the size of the sensor.
Put the same FF lens on a FF body and then on a APSC NEX with a speedbooster and you wont see any difference based just on sensor size. Simple answers and statements such as yours have this tendency to be flat out incorrect.

06-30-2016, 02:03 AM   #54
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Like Boo George, he uses a classic 4 x 5 " or Medium Format type accordion bellow to get this vignetting effect. How he attaches it to the lenses used can be achieved in many ways.

Not Work-Safe lazy day: ming xi by boo george for vogue china january 2014 | visual optimism; fashion editorials, shows, campaigns & more!

Last edited by Parallax; 06-30-2016 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Added Not Work-Safe before link
06-30-2016, 02:08 AM   #55
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Almost completely agree on this with Qwntm

QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote

For most it's going to make no difference whatsoever, except be heavier, cost more and eat up hard drive space.

Today, Aps-c far exceeds the possibilities of anything 35mm film was capable of, yet people seem to think they all need FF to solve some mythical shortcomings of APS-c. Yes, the emperor is missing some garments... sorry.
It all depends on what your shooting approach and style is.

When you look at Helmut Newton's photographs, there's almost never a question of DOF at high apertures, and almost really never bokeh related.

He would've perfectly done maybe more than half of his work on a modern APS-C, and he would've maybe even be doing it in a more fantastic way.
06-30-2016, 03:14 AM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Look at what Damien Lovegrove Home - ProPhotoNut does with Fuji crop cameras, FF is definitely NOT the factor that matters when trying to do this work.
It's easy, Damien Lovegrove is sponsored by Fuji marketing promotion efforts. So, he is not going to tell anything that does not promote the Fuji system, whatever it is. Fuji have a specific marketing budget that Canon don't have. Damien Lovegrove used to use Canon and them he figured out he could make additional revenue by being sponsored by Fuji. Sony are doing the same, they sponsor some guys to promote Sony via online social media: for example, Gary Fong promotes Sony, so for every online media marketing he is doing , he gets funds from Sony. Does this means that what he promotes is better than a Pentax K1... unrelated, he is just promoting what makes more money for him.

QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Interesting to see people go through such pains to justify their purchases.
Well, I justify nothing. If you shoot at the same distance and same aperture, larger sensor gives you more blur. Are you doing to demonstrate the contrary? You and others claiming that it does not matter are totally biased. You can do more blur by getting closer to the subject, etc... but in that case, I can also get closer with my FF camera. Same with ISO noise , if you say "I shoot at 100 ISO on tripod" so FF high iso noise is irrelevant. Good for you, all you are saying is that you are more limited with APSC compared to what you could do with full frame.

I don't need a car to go from A to B, I take the train, it's cheaper than using a car, and it does the job.... but I can't go anytime anytime I want, I'm tied to the schedule of the train. I never will claim that no one need a car because in given conditions there is not difference between car and public transport.

Please stop selling Fuji stuff on Pentax forum, even if the Fuji sponsoring is more attractive than Ricoh's, please go selling Fuji on Fuji forums.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 06-30-2016 at 03:24 AM.
06-30-2016, 03:24 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It's easy, Damien Lovegrove is sponsored by Fuji marketing promotion efforts. So, he is not going to tell anything that does not promote the Fuji system, whatever it is.
you are totally right !

so maybe it's time Pentax Ricoh understands too that investing billions in R&D is not enough to conquer new customers and that they should extend their marketing over young & talented internet visible guys like Damien. Having ambassadors on 645 systems and a lot of Theta sales, won't bring new guys to Pentax's APS-C nor FF system.
06-30-2016, 03:27 AM - 1 Like   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by phat_bog Quote
so maybe it's time Pentax Ricoh understands too that investing billions in R&D is not enough to conquer new customers and that they should extend their marketing over young & talented internet visible guys like Damien. Having ambassadors on 645 systems and a lot of Theta sales, won't bring new guys to Pentax's APS-C nor FF system.
I think that's what they are doing with the K1, because we see more reviews than ever before. However, it takes time to regain momentum, over the qausi absence of advertising done in previous years.
06-30-2016, 08:37 AM - 2 Likes   #59
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Pentax should do what Fuji does and be the ISO-Monster, just by cheating their ISO values, because most simplistic web sites, bloggers and magazines compare at manufacturer ISO settings.

This is the Fuji way:

QuoteQuote:
ISO 200 / 0.72EV
ISO 400 / 0.72EV
ISO 800 / 0.72EV
ISO 1600 / 0.72EV
ISO 3200 / 1.38EV
ISO 6400 / 2.38EV
https://photographylife.com/does-fuji-cheat-with-its-sensors

So if a noob just compares an "ISO 6400" Fuji image to a K-1 image, he actually compares the K-1 ISO 6400 to a Fuji at real ISO 1250.

Now go compare Fuji 6400 with K-1 at 1250 and it will blow you away.

Last edited by beholder3; 06-30-2016 at 10:12 AM.
06-30-2016, 10:26 AM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Put the same FF lens on a FF body and then on a APSC NEX with a speedbooster and you wont see any difference based just on sensor size. Simple answers and statements such as yours have this tendency to be flat out incorrect.


I have no idea what a APSC NEX speedbooster is but I have owned several full frame and crop sensor camera bodies and I can say without any reservation that the characteristics of a lens changes when you put it on a full frame vs a crop sensor. Here is another way to look at it. Take a picture on a full frame camera. Now take the same lens and put it on a crop sensor body. Compose the exact picture you just took on the full frame (you will need to back up a little). You will see the DOF changed and the picture looks different.


You also disregarded my comment about having the extra resolution. That is an advantage no matter how you want to spin things.


You attitude seems to suggest that you have never owned a full frame body because I have never seen somebody switch to full frame and then feel like they needed to go back to crop (with the one exception shooting wildlife).
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