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07-07-2016, 09:21 AM   #136
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I can't wait to see the reaction when Ken Rockwell gets his hand on the K1

07-07-2016, 09:31 AM   #137
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It's not that simple. Recognizing that there is a weakness means nothing. What's the extent of that weakness? What is "good", or "adequate", and in which way they're not met? What are the most stringent areas which needs improvement?

As a Pentaxian and a K-1 owner, I'm quite interested in what can be done with the K-1, and in which situations, and with which lenses. I'm also quite interested to find out when it fails and how I could avoid that. Once I gather enough experience, I might have suggestions (though I'm sure Ricoh Imaging is getting plenty).

But "the K-1's AF is weak" (as expressed in DPReview's review) is useless to me. Perhaps this is a mindset issue - cameras shouldn't be tested, but used. Please bear with me.
A tester should have a mindset on breaking things - it must try to make the product fail, when it shouldn't. If successful, a defect was discovered. Translated into the camera review world, we see "tests" designed to make a camera fail, however there's no consensus on what that particular camera should be able to do. And the tests are often variable. And then there's a widget allowing you to "compare" camera tested in completely different ways.
An user, however, will try to discover the strong points of a camera and use such knowledge in order to get better results (and, why not, cope with more challenging situations); as well as discovering weak points and how to cope with them.
07-07-2016, 09:43 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
The camera wasn’t faced with an unreasonable difficult task considering it is the top of the line model.
The fact that DPR failed to get more than a few sharp pictures during several attempts does signal to me that the K-1 indeed is pretty weak at tracking.

You could (and most seems to do just that) blame the photographer, but if it is that difficult to get it right then again Pentax should do something about it. It shouldn’t be that difficult. It is a point and shoot situation.
The 1Dx isn't particularly good at resolution given that it'a top of the line model. Should I continue, or are you willing to concede this is a pretty pointless area of discussion, but really if you want, go next,
Perceived efficiencies of different camera company's "top if the line" model.

The only camera compared to the K-1 for AF is a D750, a sports camera. The field camera doesn't capture focus as quickly as the sports camera. "doh". All your stupid DPR consumerss really thought that wasn't going to happen? They don't compare a D810 to a D750, because they don't want to know how bad it might be although the "Although 3D tracking can struggle during bursts" Well come on DPR, tell us how bad is it? I don't even use tracking unless it's a burst . WTF? SO which is better for tracking or low light, etc. a D810 or a K-1. Inquiring minds want to know, but DPR isn't going to help us out. Except to say the D750 is better than the K-1. And the K-1 is so much better a landscape camera, I'm not sure why that's relevant. The review is masterful at stating the obvious and ignoring the tough questions.

But let's start here, DPR's review of the Canon 1Dx
Canon EOS-1D X overview: Digital Photography Review

I don;t see the part where they point out that for landscape this camera isn't as good as a K-3. Where does it say the 18 MP is simply not suitable for high definition landscape. IN the DPR world, some deficiencies are worth reporting an some are not? By the DPR dude above response, they are doing a serious disservice to their customers, who might just assume that this camera for that price would be good at everything.

The Nikon D5 FX lists at $8,500 CND but is only 20 MP. and boasts great AF and 12 FPS.

The simple point is... fast accurate AF is very expensive, requires smaller file sizes so it can process images quickly.

Long story short, the opinions expressed show bias, in their comparisons and in their omissions.

Last edited by normhead; 07-07-2016 at 12:54 PM.
07-07-2016, 12:07 PM   #139
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Our problem is Ricoh built a very good generalist camera that is weak on video, better but still not competitive on AF and optimized as a superb still, studio and landscape camera. In a FAIR world we would expect a rules-based, repeatable review such that similar spec'ed cameras could be compared, contrasted and ranked. We expected as much objectivity as possible, so to show the qualities of the K-1.

Instead we received a subjective review with tests that are not repeatable and in some cases have never been done before, compared to cameras that are not similarly spec'ed, using the K-1 with sub-optimal settings and clumsily making glaring errors in usage and comments.

Please explain to me why I shouldn't rationally believe the reviewers aren't one or more of lazy, incompetent or disingenuous.

The appearance of a conflict of interest is so much worse than the reality. If they genuinely think they did a fair and impartial review they're just naive.

07-07-2016, 12:53 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Our problem is Ricoh built a very good generalist camera that is weak on video, better but still not competitive on AF and optimized as a superb still, studio and landscape camera. In a FAIR world we would expect a rules-based, repeatable review such that similar spec'ed cameras could be compared, contrasted and ranked. We expected as much objectivity as possible, so to show the qualities of the K-1.

Instead we received a subjective review with tests that are not repeatable and in some cases have never been done before, compared to cameras that are not similarly spec'ed, using the K-1 with sub-optimal settings and clumsily making glaring errors in usage and comments.

Please explain to me why I shouldn't rationally believe the reviewers aren't one or more of lazy, incompetent or disingenuous.

The appearance of a conflict of interest is so much worse than the reality. If they genuinely think they did a fair and impartial review they're just naive.
Obviously I am deeply involved in this, as one of the people who has argued with DPReview because my practical experience refuted their conclusions. But .... I don't think the primary problem is that they applied the tests wrongly. I think it is largely because the tests are wrong.

They test the modern AF technology features such as dozens of AF points, moving the selected point around, and having the camera track from point to point. Apparently they do this with all cameras. Then in effect they aggregated those various tests to come up with summaries and conclusions for the K-1 - "AF is poor".

I am old-school. I normally use just the center point, I point the camera at what has to be sharp, and I press the button. As the subject moves, I keep pointing the camera at it. Then when I've got enough, I lift the button. I can routinely get a burst of (say) 12 frames, all accurately auto-focused. (So I use user-panning, not camera-tracking).

But my results don't show that the K-1 has a good implementation of those other features, (I don't know or care whether or not it does), and it probably isn't useful to contradict their claims.

They are not testing "can the camera use AF to take sharp photos?" (Of course it can! Time after time). They are testing features that I can't find a use for when I'm successfully shooting action. And since they found it hard to make those features work, the K-1 is poor. The fact that I and many others can routinely get sharp photos with the K-1 is irrelevant. Apparently it doesn't count because we are doing it the wrong way!

Here are a couple of examples of doing things my way:
Example 1
Example 2

One DPReview person (Barney Britton) said :
" Fast jets, cars racing around a track etc., are often positioned at infinity, more or less, and when you're tracking them, you're essentially tracking them from infinity, through infinity, towards infinity. An iPhone with a long enough lens could do a pretty good job of that - it isn't hard. And if you're just panning, the AF system has even less work to do."

Here is my response to that mind-boggling nonsense:

"Barney Britton: you said "Fast jets, cars racing around a track etc., are often positioned at infinity".
"Wow! Not even close! I've been shooting those in vast numbers for many years, and it is certain that accurate AF is essential! In fact, sometimes I don't even get the whole car within the depth of field. I have to make choice such as "do I use f/5.6 and risk not getting the whole thing in focus at 200mm or 450mm or whatever?", or "do I use f/8 and not blur the background enough and get a little bit more noise?" Sometimes when planes are performing the "pass", where they hurtle towards one-another and just miss, I find I've panned with the one that is furthest from the camera, & got a poor shot because the closest one is out of focus, which is artistically bad. Similarly, if two racing bikes are having a tussle, it is typically important to to get the closest one to the camera in focus, for similar reasons. Fortunately, the K-1 plus the recent FF lenses is up to it. It works!"

I think there is evidence that the reviews, and perhaps some of the reviewers, have lost sight of what photography is about. Producing pictures! It isn't about simply exploiting technology. Technology is a means to the end, and where it doesn't contribute to the end it should be ignored.

Their tests should allow for various shooting styles, not just those that try to exploit the latest technology. The test of a shooting style is "can it deliver good photos?"
07-07-2016, 12:54 PM - 1 Like   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Our problem is Ricoh built a very good generalist camera that is weak on video, better but still not competitive on AF and optimized as a superb still, studio and landscape camera. In a FAIR world we would expect a rules-based, repeatable review such that similar spec'ed cameras could be compared, contrasted and ranked. We expected as much objectivity as possible, so to show the qualities of the K-1.

Instead we received a subjective review with tests that are not repeatable and in some cases have never been done before, compared to cameras that are not similarly spec'ed, using the K-1 with sub-optimal settings and clumsily making glaring errors in usage and comments.

Please explain to me why I shouldn't rationally believe the reviewers aren't one or more of lazy, incompetent or disingenuous.

The appearance of a conflict of interest is so much worse than the reality. If they genuinely think they did a fair and impartial review they're just naive.
Don't you think that part of the problem is the fact the K-1 is the "flagship" camera for Pentax, while it is clear that a 6D and D610 are not for Canon and Nikon respectively. The fact that on B and H, the K-1 is listed for 200 dollars less than the D750 says something, but somehow, DP Review expects a D750 and D810 rolled into one from Pentax, when the price indicates that would should be expected is 6D or D610 level of performance. The fact that we are getting similar still image quality to a D810 for a portion of the D810 price is really understated in this review.

And frankly, if someone really wants to do video, it isn't like the D610 or D810 are great at it. They aren't. You'd be far better getting a Sony NEX and getting a tool designed for the job. The other cameras are just variations on a level of mediocre.
07-07-2016, 01:04 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bromberger Quote
is this true?
Yes it is true
The C2 settings do not allow the illumination to remain on - to be able to place your point over your subject
If your left hand is free, the side AF Mode button could be pushed for the illumination to remain on
07-07-2016, 01:09 PM - 1 Like   #143
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@Rondec Of course. That's a problem with the structure of the entire review. Really, Pentax broke the rules and built a camera that bridges several FF categories. By rights it should be compared to the D810 (I know nothing about Canon - would it be 5D?), but 810 and 5D are Holy Grails. We can't have an $1,800 camera shown as 85% or 90% performance of a bread and butter $3,000 (street) camera. That might hurt the revenue of DPR's corporate overlord.

I don't argue (really) with the 84 points or Silver rating. The AF isn't competitive with action camera AF. My objection to the AF section is their choice of comparison cameras (as you wrote), methods and words. The methods aren't repeatable. The words aren't free of pejorative tone. We all know it isn't a D750. We know it shouldn't be compared to a D610. We know the documentation is lacking - so learn how the camera works and then mark it down for poor documentation. If you do a test and make a claim about AF points which can be sho n to be incorrect in the very photo you use to illustrate your claim - you render your entire review suspect. It's just sloppy, especially coming after the M50/2 and Pix l Shift fiascos.

07-07-2016, 01:12 PM   #144
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Alway trying to resist precise analysis, my problem with their AF analysis was it set my B.S. meters off so bad it took me 5 minutes to reset them. Their work was just sloppy.
07-07-2016, 01:21 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The methods aren't repeatable. The words aren't free of pejorative tone.
+1.

They really need to get their testing act together. They attempt to be consistent and repeatable from camera to camera in their exposure test chart shoots, but are prepared to be sloppy as hell with AF testing.

Plus they always refer the testing narrative to their Nikon experience, without really attempting to learn anything different (like the K-1's extensive set of AF control options). DPR have evolved into a Nikon shop, it seems.
07-07-2016, 01:28 PM   #146
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@Barry_Pearson (not quoting your entire post - extended conversations on an iPhone don't work well)

At one time I got pretty good at center point AF.C shooting college lacrosse. My son played X-Attack and when I kept the AF point at belt height, moved the camera and pulled zoom I had a high in-focus rate even with a DA55-300.

The key of course is being willing and able to move the camera.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-07-2016 at 03:44 PM.
07-07-2016, 01:49 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Alway trying to resist precise analysis, my problem with their AF analysis was it set my B.S. meters off so bad it took me 5 minutes to reset them. Their work was just sloppy.
I don't know how to express my disappoint in english. The only decent word I find is that they aren't honest people at DPReviews.
07-07-2016, 01:59 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I don't know how to express my disappoint in english. The only decent word I find is that they aren't honest people at DPReviews.
Intellectually dishonest, perhaps. That AF "test" using a meandering bicycle was at best inadequate, but otherwise just bizarre.
07-07-2016, 02:04 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Intellectually dishonest, perhaps. That AF "test" using a meandering bicycle was at best inadequate, but otherwise just bizarre.
I took 70 shots of bikes coming toward me, AFC center point, focus prio, burst mode, 68 are in good focus. But I'm disgusted, this guy at DPReview will always find a good excuse to reject the good results and retain only the bad results. This is what I call dishonest. Just thinking that we should get in touch with Ricoh and have this guy fired.
07-07-2016, 02:46 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
The whole defensive tactics on dpr side is really disgusting.

This Rishi was explicitly asked which AF point they used for the single AF point test.


Special K? Pentax K-1 Review: Digital Photography Review

Now go check the facts and take a look at the metadata of one of the images in question: http://m.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/2896376384/AF-Bike-Test-Straight-Hold-Off/IMGP2512.jpeg
Check makernotes:AF Point Selected.

If you read "Unknown (17);0" that means "Select-1" mode and AF point number 17 (Pentax simply counts from top to bottom row from left to right; obviously #17 of 33 is the very center).

The very center AF is located on the low contrast knee. Not face. Not jersey.

Go check your own K-1 and it's metadata and give me an acceptable explanation why he could be saying the used another AF point but the metadata proves different. Another metadata conspiracy against poor dpr?

Disgusting.
Disgusting that he - a guy with a Ph.D - lied. Good on you for checking the EXIF.

In the comments, the technical director gets given a serve:
"Maybe you let a somebody explain to you what a controlled test is. A repeatable one. One you can compare.

Where is the 6D test done under the exact same parameters?

Where is the D610 test done under the exact same parameters?

Why would a photographer not follow his subject at all?

What do you expect when you show out of focus faces, then explain you focussed the chest and both face and chest in multiple shots were beyond the AF points?

All conspiracy?

If a tester can not give convincing answers to all these questions, the test is a fail."
He can only reply:

"I understand what a controlled test is. But developing a controlled test for AF has escaped pretty much everyone in the world. We're trying our best with an admittedly imperfect test that does model and reflect real-world AF performance differences between cameras today.

3 years from now, the test will be fairly different and, hopefully, evolved, as technology changes and demands new, evolved tests."

Last edited by clackers; 07-07-2016 at 03:58 PM.
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