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07-07-2016, 02:49 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
It's become such a mantra that Pentax's weak points are AF,video and modern lens selection that these will always be highlighted -but Ricoh is working on them, as it must. The lens issue is a perfectly reasonable one to draw attention to for anybody thinking of buying into the Pentax system for the first time - being able to expand into specialist areas as you progress is an important point. For instance, I do a lot of macro work, and, if I was starting with a clean slate, I might be tempted by Canon because of the amazing MP-E65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro lens, the like of which nobody else offers as far as I know.

I assume Pentax, who used to have some unique lenses, found that as their user base shrank the development and manufacturing costs couldn't be justified, and got caught in a vicious spiral -but the truth is that these lenses are no longer reliably available. None of this is Ricoh's fault, and they are addressing it, but it takes time and investment - just as improving the AF does -if there was an easy or cheap fix, they'd be utter fools not to have implemented it - I suspect that they are partly hoisted by the petard of Pentax's backward lens compatibility - that doesn't mean they're not improving it - but it's still not good enough. And whether we like it or not, it does matter - maybe not 95% of the time - just are there are features on my K-3 I have never used and possibly never will - but having the confidence that the AF won't let you down when you don't have time for workarounds is important - and as long as AF is perceived as an Achilles heel, there will always be a stick to beat Pentax with.

I do think that the dpreview was unnecessarily negative about some things - I think they were grudging about the strengths ( though some of these too, have a mantra-quality about them where they become received wisdom beyond argument) - and that their conclusions were more negative than the testing they were based on in places - but, like with Tony Northrup's review, if you step outside the Pentax bubble and look at the camera from the point of view of a consumer who has an open field to chose from, the points are not unfair. I love Pentax cameras and don't want to change, but that doesn't stop me wishing that the focusing on my K-3 was a bit more decisive, because that's about the only thing that stops it being well nigh perfect for insect macros. I'm not going to mention video because I never use it, other than to say that if Pentax don't develop it, it will go on being another stick to beat them with. I think where the review is better than many is that they don't expect contradictory things - like high frame rate AND high Mp, or rugged weather-sealed construction AND feather-lightness.

But I think that we, and Ricoh, need to take the criticisms on the chin. Ricoh need to deal with them at cause and stop them being issues - and the evidence is that they are working on this - and we need to stop being defensive about them and tell people why, in spite of them, Pentax cameras are still our cameras of choice.
It is a new sensor size for Pentax and so it is probably not unusual that they wouldn't have a full line up lenses yet. They are working on it. The line up currently has 15-30, 24-70, 70-200, and 150-450 -- a very nice set of zooms, the FA limiteds and the DA 50, DA 35, DFA 100, DA *200, DA *300 and DA 560. Biggest area of lack to me is in the wide angle prime department, but those will come. Compared to where Sony FE mount was at launch, it is in pretty decent shape.

I don't think anyone on here is arguing that Pentax shouldn't improve their auto focus more. Of course they should. They need to add more focus points, develop better tracking algorithms and fit their lenses with better motors (although the newest set of lenses is pretty nice here). What folks are upset about is that DP Review's focus test came out significantly worse than our experience. The comment was made in the rebuttal that even the worst mirrorless cameras can track this cyclist and the Pentax wasn't able to do so, that it is unlikely that the K-1 will be able to keep up with moving children, etc. Well, that is just simply wrong. I don't shoot a moving cyclist, but I do take photos of my kids running around and the camera has no issues keeping up with them. If I am tracking something, as long as the first image is in focus, subsequent images will be in focus, as long as I don't screw things up.

As I said before, I expected DP Review to drop pentax back a bit based on lens availability and not great video. At the same time, the selling point "Better still image quality than a D810 offers for half the price," seems to have been missed.

Edit: I will say that I do feel really aggravated when I see folks posting about the K-1's auto focus performance based on the K3's performance. They are very different cameras and anyone who thinks that Pentax didn't work on auto focus between the release of the K3 II and the K-1 is definitely wrong. But it isn't uncommon that people will come back here and run down the focus ability of current cameras based on their K10 or K7 from ages ago...

07-07-2016, 03:22 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Edit: I will say that I do feel really aggravated when I see folks posting about the K-1's auto focus performance based on the K3's performance. They are very different cameras and anyone who thinks that Pentax didn't work on auto focus between the release of the K3 II and the K-1 is definitely wrong. But it isn't uncommon that people will come back here and run down the focus ability of current cameras based on their K10 or K7 from ages ago...
with respect, I don't think I said that - it certainly wasn't my intention. I don't have a K-1 (yet) - the K-3 is my only reference point - and it's weakest point - the only place in which it lets me down - is the AF - I'm sure that the K-1 is technologically better in all areas than the K-3, but it's AF isn't as good as contemporary Nikons, just as the K-3's wasn't.

Otherwise, I said myself that Ricoh is working on the issues - I'm not even saying that they are not further forward than some others - it's not a question of blame - I think they are doing a great job - it's just that, as I say, anybody wanting to buy into the system now would have to take lens availability into account as part of their decision making, which is the point that dpr and Northrup, I think,are trying to make - and yes, I did also say that I don't think that dpr gave sufficient credit for the K-1's strengths.
07-07-2016, 03:29 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
with respect, I don't think I said that - it certainly wasn't my intention. I don't have a K-1 (yet) - the K-3 is my only reference point - and it's weakest point - the only place in which it lets me down - is the AF - I'm sure that the K-1 is technologically better in all areas than the K-3, but it's AF isn't as good as contemporary Nikons, just as the K-3's wasn't.

Otherwise, I said myself that Ricoh is working on the issues - I'm not even saying that they are not further forward than some others - it's not a question of blame - I think they are doing a great job - it's just that, as I say, anybody wanting to buy into the system now would have to take lens availability into account as part of their decision making, which is the point that dpr and Northrup, I think,are trying to make - and yes, I did also say that I don't think that dpr gave sufficient credit for the K-1's strengths.
Sure. I'm not singling you out. There are plenty of other posters who bring up really old Pentax models as proof of their failures, while I definitely see slow but steady progress over time.
07-07-2016, 04:52 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Based on your comment, I have to ask: you ranked the af performance from the cameras you listed based on your shooting experience with all of them or you ranked them based on specs?
I've only owned the K3, K1, and tried the 7DII and D750. I ranked the other camera based of spec differences from what I know, but you could change the ranking a bit.

07-07-2016, 04:53 AM - 2 Likes   #125
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I have been vocal in the DPR pages (which is not my usual way) commenting on the reviewers obvious lack of knowledge about the Pentax system, and the unfair comparisons. The AF test is laughable, and Rishi Sanyals is lamentable and overly sensitive in his rebuttals.

I propose a confederation of Pentax rebuttals; a revolt of reason. Lets all get out there with our K-1's and take a series of shots based on a a bracket of parameters which we can then use to post to the net and - as they used to say in Aussie football terms 'stick it up 'em!' We all know the K-1 AF is more than adequate to do the ridiculous test they performed on DPR (apparently if you perform a test with faulty parameters several times over and get the same result the result must be proved...sheesh) I think this may be a way to really dent the reputation of DPR as unbiased and independent reviewers.

I would hope that those amongst us with Pentax ambassadorships would take the lead in setting the parameters o the test and using whatever profile they have to promote it.
07-07-2016, 04:55 AM - 1 Like   #126
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I've seen an AF test comparison between a Nikon FF vs. a K-1 in youtube. Definitely Nikon did a lot better than the K-1. However, I think we are all aware of this and we're still with Pentax. As I've always said, the decision to buy into the system belongs to you. My reasons for going into Pentax outweighs the difference in AF speed.
07-07-2016, 06:42 AM - 7 Likes   #127
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DPReview receives Tin Award

I reviewed the K-1 review by DPReview and award it the coveted Tin Award.

I arrived at my final verdict by applying ad-hoc and not reproducible evaluation procedures. My evaluation and write up changes based on what review/site I'm evaluating and what year I'm doing it, so please don't expect to be able to compare scores. I have furthermore categorised the review according to a certain scheme and will evaluate the review with respect to its category, except when I choose not to for reasons that I will not elaborate upon.

Amongst the reasons I had to downgrade the DPReview review were
  • Poor language. There really are just a few examples of imprecise/misleading wording (of which most have been reluctantly changed already) but that does not stop me from referring to all of the review as "poorly worded".
  • No dedicated menu system. I realise I can click on the topic title to bring up a respective menu and that this works well, but this is not the way I'm used to when navigating other sites. There is probably a way to improve my experience but I won't bother to check the site's configuration options because my review already states elsewhere that the site is not configurable.
  • Limited number of pages in the review. I think there are actually more but confirming that would require me to navigate to those pages and check them out. I prefer to refer to these potentially existing pages as "probably outdated".
  • Notification scheme for comments. Although this feature can be really useful and other sites don't offer it, I rarely comment myself so I find that feature rarely applicable. I'll therefore mark the feature as a negative.
  • Nested content. Within selectable pages, there are selectable images. I find this "nested content" approach confusing. It is not what I'm used to anyhow. It may work very well, if I used the approach for a while, but I prefer to penalise what is different over understanding the merits of a different approach.
  • Not configurable. The site is not configurable enough. During my review I came across a number of configuration options but I had made up my mind earlier that it was not configurable. I'm also unwilling to consult the site's help pages to check whether there are more configuration options.
  • Poor default scheme. The default scheme makes it hard to read content. I know I could easily change the scheme but my principle is to evaluate default settings.
If anyone is going to challenge my verdict and procedures, I will respond in a very defensive manner, bordering on the childish. I will make sure that there is good amount of counter aggression in my responses because everything -- no matter whether I have made factual mistakes that I will silently correct later on -- will be my readers' fault. While I will not use the term "fanboy" in writing, I will make it unmistakeably clear in my responses that that's what I think you are when you dare to challenge my views.

I have access to way more reviews than any of my readers so only I know how to evaluate reviews properly according to industry standards.

</satire>

Last edited by Class A; 07-07-2016 at 07:01 AM.
07-07-2016, 07:11 AM - 1 Like   #128
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The camera wasn’t faced with an unreasonable difficult task considering it is the top of the line model.
The fact that DPR failed to get more than a few sharp pictures during several attempts does signal to me that the K-1 indeed is pretty weak at tracking.

You could (and most seems to do just that) blame the photographer, but if it is that difficult to get it right then again Pentax should do something about it. It shouldn’t be that difficult. It is a point and shoot situation.

07-07-2016, 07:27 AM   #129
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The K-1 being "top of the line" is not the same as with the D5 being "the top of the line". Just sayin'.

Besides... is it really that bad?
07-07-2016, 08:08 AM - 3 Likes   #130
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What constitutes a lie to you?

The whole defensive tactics on dpr side is really disgusting.

This Rishi was explicitly asked which AF point they used for the single AF point test.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rishi Sanyal:
Why is the central AF point on his tibia? Because we didn't use the center AF point. We used a focus point higher up from center.
Special K? Pentax K-1 Review: Digital Photography Review

Now go check the facts and take a look at the metadata of one of the images in question: http://m.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/2896376384/AF-Bike-Test-Straight-Hold-Off/IMGP2512.jpeg
Check makernotes:AF Point Selected.

If you read "Unknown (17);0" that means "Select-1" mode and AF point number 17 (Pentax simply counts from top to bottom row from left to right; obviously #17 of 33 is the very center).

The very center AF is located on the low contrast knee. Not face. Not jersey.

Go check your own K-1 and it's metadata and give me an acceptable explanation why he could be saying the used another AF point but the metadata proves different. Another metadata conspiracy against poor dpr?

Disgusting.
07-07-2016, 08:19 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
If you read "Unknown (17);0" that means "Select-1" mode and AF point number 17 (Pentax simply counts from top to bottom row from left to right; obviously #17 of 33 is the very center).
Why don't you post this finding as a comment?

I'd try to sound not too frustrated and/or aggressive. It would be really useful, though, if someone tried to bring inconsistencies to the attention of DPReview.

After all, once they have been bombarded with complaints about their initial PixelShift test, they have redone it, resulting in much better appreciation of the feature.
07-07-2016, 08:20 AM   #132
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Rishi is fishy.
07-07-2016, 08:23 AM   #133
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Original Poster
Rishi didn't do the review, so how would he know, but hey! He has a phd in something difficult do you think he could possibly be wrong?
07-07-2016, 08:24 AM   #134
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It was posted; but people are too busy fighting - it's hopeless.
And obviously, certain kinds of people started attacking Pentaxians because - they say - we claimed Pentax is perfect. Nobody said so, of course (actually people like MightyMike and Barry, who are busy posting pictures to actually prove the Pentax AF is nowhere near that useless explicitly and repeatedly said that things are far from perfect).
This, and Rishy/DPReview becoming very defensive makes any consensus impossible. IMO.
07-07-2016, 08:31 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
It's become such a mantra that Pentax's weak points are AF,video and modern lens selection that these will always be highlighted -but Ricoh is working on them, as it must. The lens issue is a perfectly reasonable one to draw attention to for anybody thinking of buying into the Pentax system for the first time - being able to expand into specialist areas as you progress is an important point. For instance, I do a lot of macro work, and, if I was starting with a clean slate, I might be tempted by Canon because of the amazing MP-E65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro lens, the like of which nobody else offers as far as I know.

I assume Pentax, who used to have some unique lenses, found that as their user base shrank the development and manufacturing costs couldn't be justified, and got caught in a vicious spiral -but the truth is that these lenses are no longer reliably available. None of this is Ricoh's fault, and they are addressing it, but it takes time and investment - just as improving the AF does -if there was an easy or cheap fix, they'd be utter fools not to have implemented it - I suspect that they are partly hoisted by the petard of Pentax's backward lens compatibility - that doesn't mean they're not improving it - but it's still not good enough. And whether we like it or not, it does matter - maybe not 95% of the time - just are there are features on my K-3 I have never used and possibly never will - but having the confidence that the AF won't let you down when you don't have time for workarounds is important - and as long as AF is perceived as an Achilles heel, there will always be a stick to beat Pentax with.

I do think that the dpreview was unnecessarily negative about some things - I think they were grudging about the strengths ( though some of these too, have a mantra-quality about them where they become received wisdom beyond argument) - and that their conclusions were more negative than the testing they were based on in places - but, like with Tony Northrup's review, if you step outside the Pentax bubble and look at the camera from the point of view of a consumer who has an open field to chose from, the points are not unfair. I love Pentax cameras and don't want to change, but that doesn't stop me wishing that the focusing on my K-3 was a bit more decisive, because that's about the only thing that stops it being well nigh perfect for insect macros. I'm not going to mention video because I never use it, other than to say that if Pentax don't develop it, it will go on being another stick to beat them with. I think where the review is better than many is that they don't expect contradictory things - like high frame rate AND high Mp, or rugged weather-sealed construction AND feather-lightness.

But I think that we, and Ricoh, need to take the criticisms on the chin. Ricoh need to deal with them at cause and stop them being issues - and the evidence is that they are working on this - and we need to stop being defensive about them and tell people why, in spite of them, Pentax cameras are still our cameras of choice.
well said. until you recognize your weaknesses you will never improve

Randy
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