Dpreview give K-1 Silver

Kunzite · 07-07-2016, 03:09 PM

Well, they found a (DPReview) forum member saying he had similarly bad results with his K-3. Which I guess makes it an established fact

**monochrome** · 07-07-2016, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Well, they found a (DPReview) forum member saying he had similarly bad results with his K-3. Which I guess makes it an established fact

Sock-puppet?

KDD · 07-07-2016, 05:19 PM

By Rishi Sany al
Copy and paste from dpreview.

And yet despite all these variables, the same patterns are observed across multiple runs, over different days, over periods of years:

Canon DSLRs refocus in Z-axis very well (save for the occasional hiccup, like the 80D), w/ a lower hit-rate when conflating subject tracking (X-Y movement).

Nikon DSLRs nail everything.

Sony's latest mirrorless & stacked 1"-type sensors nail Z-axis tracking/refocusing well. Sony mirrorless w/ PDAF nail subject tracking well if Lock-on reverts to PDAF-based subject tracking (if big green box disappears & is replaced by small PDAF points).

Pentax K-3, K-3 II, & K-1 struggle: Z-axis tracking keeps catching up, & subject tracking is too slow/unreliable.

So you think the Pentax runs, done multiple times on multiple days across bodies from the K-3 to the K-1 over the span of years all happened to befall unfavorable conditions?

That's quite a theory.

If we got wildly inconsistent results, do you think we'd blindly keep doing this test?

**monochrome** · 07-07-2016, 05:43 PM - **1 Like**

They're not listening. The argument isn't about the tracking AF. It's about use of the expression 'poor AF' which indicts all AF Modes; snarky comments about bringing a Kindle to read while waiting for AF to lock (Kindle is a product of Amazon, owner of DPR); stating the AF will not be good for fast, small children (an inference that cannot be supported); contrasting K-1 with D750 instead of D810, which isn't a tracking AF or video beast either.

Interestingly, they've re-run the tests and the results are better. They've edited out the most offensive words and phrases. They're actually responding - and some posters are thanking them.

We all know Pentax tracking AF is at least a generation behind. It isn't news. There are ways to say that without denigrating us.

noelpolar · 07-07-2016, 08:29 PM - **2 Likes**

Felt insecure about my K-1 tracking (actually bored looking for Whales on my beach walk this morning)....so somebodies dog was running along the beach...... no thinking on my part...... user setting 3 (my BIF starting point)..... 20 shots (buffer seemed to slow for the last 3 or so...... all in focus (I reckon) DFA 150-450 lens..... click image to go to flicker to see the 20....ho hum....

heres a 1/9th crop (4k pixels) of one shot....... clearly this Dog is a professional....

I think someone needs to do a comprehensive "How to setup and use my Pentax for Auto Focus, including tracking moving stuff" guide or video ...... whilst not wishing to compare brands, I can't help but think 85% of "reasonable" people experiencing some focus and focus tracking issues with their Pentax just need some help.

Clearly I'm not reffering to DPreview here, because they are experts.....I'm just a retired postal worker on his morning walk.

**wizofoz** · 07-07-2016, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

They're not listening. The argument isn't about the tracking AF. It's about use of the expression 'poor AF' which indicts all AF Modes; snarky comments about bringing a Kindle to read while waiting for AF to lock (Kindle is a product of Amazon, owner of DPR); stating the AF will not be good for fast, small children (an inference that cannot be supported); contrasting K-1 with D750 instead of D810, which isn't a tracking AF or video beast either.

Interestingly, they've re-run the tests and the results are better. They've edited out the most offensive words and phrases. They're actually responding - and some posters are thanking them.

We all know Pentax tracking AF is at least a generation behind. It isn't news. There are ways to say that without denigrating us.

They finally got the point and changed the wording in the conclusion. They still won't accept that the weight of numbers of experienced shooters getting better than acceptable results means that there is something wrong with their tests. I detect heels dug in

ogl · 07-07-2016, 09:55 PM

If to compare K-1's AF with Nikon D5/D500 and Canon 1Dx - it's really worse

But is there any sense in such comparison?

Nikon 810 is very close to K-1's AF - it depends on lenses, of course.
Some from Penta-Club (Russia) users have the both cameras and found K-1+85/1.4 is even better than D810+85/1.4G.

**wizofoz** · 07-07-2016, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Class A

I reviewed the K-1 review by DPReview and award it the coveted Tin Award.

Class A, do you mind if I post a link to this on DPR? I think your wit and wisdom should be shared with a wider audience

pinholecam · 07-07-2016, 10:45 PM

Just boycott the site.
Let them feel something.

melander · 07-07-2016, 11:38 PM

The dpr test reminds me of an old swedish "most funny home video" film where they have put the camera on a tripod filming a man swiming in a lake. The man naturally swims out of the frame and the wife starts to scream at the man. "You are swiming out of the frame Kaj, you are swiming out of the frame".

Who tracks anything with the camera on a tripod?

Video in question...

You Tube

Kunzite · 07-07-2016, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Sock-puppet?

Not at all. Rosemember (who now posted a series of tests using a K-3, some lenses and his dog) has a valid identity.

Barry Pearson · 07-07-2016, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

@Barry_Pearson (not quoting your entire post - extended conversations on an iPhone don't work well)

At one time I got pretty good at center point AF.C shooting college lacrosse. My son played X-Attack and when I kept the AF point at belt height, moved the camera and pulled zoom I had a high in-focus rate even with a DA55-300.

The key of course is being willing and able to move the camera.

Yes! It takes practice, but it can be very effective.

I've just posted a 13-frame sequence showing how center point focusing can be useful where different subjects need to be focused on in mid burst.

I assume that is hard to achieve with camera-tracking. It seems to me that when it is important to follow the action, rather than follow a single subject within the action, this has to be left to the photographer rather than the camera.

beholder3 · 07-07-2016, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by KDD

By Rishi Sany al
Copy and paste from dpreview.

And yet despite all these variables, the same patterns are observed across multiple runs, over different days, over periods of years:

Canon DSLRs refocus in Z-axis very well (save for the occasional hiccup, like the 80D), w/ a lower hit-rate when conflating subject tracking (X-Y movement).

Nikon DSLRs nail everything.

That is the core of the bashing/fanboy problem.

They have zero comparison data from the peer cameras Nikon D610 and Canon 6D (they chose the peers) using the same nonsense-"test" setup.
But yet a fanboy/basher comes along with the broadest statement "brand x nail everything". That is just a made up lie with ill intentions and shows their "spirit".
Their old D610 test showed 6 images where 2 (33%) where fails (in a much, much more favorable setting).

Their simple task is to run the exact same test on a peer group of cameras and give us measurable results of the type model X had 60% hit rate, model Y had 75%.

Even just the fact, that someone refers to a brand instead of a model is a strong indication of bashing/trolling/fanboy.

A German paper did a much more scientific and repeatable AF test (no Pentax) and the results are all over the place. The broke off some Sony A7II test, because it was so bad. One of the tests had the Nikon model end up with 0% hit rate. Things are not that easy.

Negative over generalization without facts. It is the exact same "logic" that applies when people take one hearsay incident involving a minority group X and then pick up torches and pitchforks to "hang all Xs". That is how hate crime is initiated.

**RobA_Oz** · 07-07-2016, 11:53 PM

I've been thinking about this review, and our reactions to it. As has been pointed out, the general conclusion here seems to be that most of the review was fair, but that their comments about the K-1's AF were unfair, or at least not wholly consistent with our own experience. Certainly, as I posted earlier, my experience of tracking AF (which was at night in a longish room fitted with banks of fluorescent lights, thus requiring a high ISO setting to get the shutter speed and aperture required) was much more favourable, though I wasn't using their method of single-point AF.

I replied to a post that suggested the DPR test results were dishonest, saying I thought they may have been described as intellectually dishonest. I should add that I meant by that remark, that the test was incomplete in that it used a single AF mode, was subject to variables like lighting intensity and direction, the bicycle rider's behaviour and the was influenced by the selection of an odd focus area on the subject. Drawing a conclusion about the overall performance of the camera's AF system was therefore tenuous, to say the least, and even intellectually dishonest. As with Tony Northrup's review, what I think may be happening here has an element of reviewers having got used to the behaviour of other systems, and finding that the resultant effect on their ways of working with those systems haven't translated well into working with Pentax products. Unlike some other PF members, I don't believe it's as simple as their main sponsors influencing their judgment. Many of their contributors write or wrote for Amateur Photographer, which is a publication I've enjoyed for many years, so I'd hope that their work for another employer wouldn't adversely alter their ethical standards.

However, aside from that, I thought the review's conclusions about the K-1 were mostly fair. We need to stay with them, and use logic to challenge things we genuinely disagree with. Constructive discourse is far preferable to shouting matches, let alone media warfare.

DPReview is read by a lot of people, so I don't think a boycott of the site is wise or, indeed, helpful.

beholder3 · 07-08-2016, 12:55 AM

Boy, now the Editor has responded to the user pointing out to him, that his explicit answer on the AF point used for the single point test (the one on the knees) had no relation to truth:

Originally posted by Rishi Sanyal:

First of all, I didn't write this review. Do you see my name on the author list?
There was a miscommunication about which set of images the author ended up including
...
All you've managed to do is nitpick something that has absolutely no relevance or bearing to the conclusion or review.

If I got caught lying about stealing some chocolate my mom certainly would have loved to hear
"First of all, I am not in charge of protecting the chocolate.
All you've managed to do is nitpick something that has absolutely no relevance or bearing to the economics of our household."

The good part about these kinds of situations is that people let go of their masks and you get to see their true being.

07-07-2016, 08:29 PM - 2 Likes	#155
noelpolar Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Goolwa, SA Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,310	Felt insecure about my K-1 tracking (actually bored looking for Whales on my beach walk this morning)....so somebodies dog was running along the beach...... no thinking on my part...... user setting 3 (my BIF starting point)..... 20 shots (buffer seemed to slow for the last 3 or so...... all in focus (I reckon) DFA 150-450 lens..... click image to go to flicker to see the 20....ho hum.... heres a 1/9th crop (4k pixels) of one shot....... clearly this Dog is a professional.... I think someone needs to do a comprehensive "How to setup and use my Pentax for Auto Focus, including tracking moving stuff" guide or video ...... whilst not wishing to compare brands, I can't help but think 85% of "reasonable" people experiencing some focus and focus tracking issues with their Pentax just need some help. Clearly I'm not reffering to DPreview here, because they are experts.....I'm just a retired postal worker on his morning walk. Last edited by noelpolar; 07-07-2016 at 09:14 PM.

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07-07-2016, 03:09 PM	#151
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Well, they found a (DPReview) forum member saying he had similarly bad results with his K-3. Which I guess makes it an established fact

07-07-2016, 03:37 PM	#152
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Kunzite Well, they found a (DPReview) forum member saying he had similarly bad results with his K-3. Which I guess makes it an established fact Sock-puppet?

07-07-2016, 05:19 PM	#153
KDD Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 403	By Rishi Sany al Copy and paste from dpreview. And yet despite all these variables, the same patterns are observed across multiple runs, over different days, over periods of years: Canon DSLRs refocus in Z-axis very well (save for the occasional hiccup, like the 80D), w/ a lower hit-rate when conflating subject tracking (X-Y movement). Nikon DSLRs nail everything. Sony's latest mirrorless & stacked 1"-type sensors nail Z-axis tracking/refocusing well. Sony mirrorless w/ PDAF nail subject tracking well if Lock-on reverts to PDAF-based subject tracking (if big green box disappears & is replaced by small PDAF points). Pentax K-3, K-3 II, & K-1 struggle: Z-axis tracking keeps catching up, & subject tracking is too slow/unreliable. So you think the Pentax runs, done multiple times on multiple days across bodies from the K-3 to the K-1 over the span of years all happened to befall unfavorable conditions? That's quite a theory. If we got wildly inconsistent results, do you think we'd blindly keep doing this test?

07-07-2016, 05:43 PM - 1 Like	#154
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	They're not listening. The argument isn't about the tracking AF. It's about use of the expression 'poor AF' which indicts all AF Modes; snarky comments about bringing a Kindle to read while waiting for AF to lock (Kindle is a product of Amazon, owner of DPR); stating the AF will not be good for fast, small children (an inference that cannot be supported); contrasting K-1 with D750 instead of D810, which isn't a tracking AF or video beast either. Interestingly, they've re-run the tests and the results are better. They've edited out the most offensive words and phrases. They're actually responding - and some posters are thanking them. We all know Pentax tracking AF is at least a generation behind. It isn't news. There are ways to say that without denigrating us.

07-07-2016, 09:51 PM	#156
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Originally posted by monochrome They're not listening. The argument isn't about the tracking AF. It's about use of the expression 'poor AF' which indicts all AF Modes; snarky comments about bringing a Kindle to read while waiting for AF to lock (Kindle is a product of Amazon, owner of DPR); stating the AF will not be good for fast, small children (an inference that cannot be supported); contrasting K-1 with D750 instead of D810, which isn't a tracking AF or video beast either. Interestingly, they've re-run the tests and the results are better. They've edited out the most offensive words and phrases. They're actually responding - and some posters are thanking them. We all know Pentax tracking AF is at least a generation behind. It isn't news. There are ways to say that without denigrating us. They finally got the point and changed the wording in the conclusion. They still won't accept that the weight of numbers of experienced shooters getting better than acceptable results means that there is something wrong with their tests. I detect heels dug in

07-07-2016, 09:55 PM	#157
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	If to compare K-1's AF with Nikon D5/D500 and Canon 1Dx - it's really worse But is there any sense in such comparison? Nikon 810 is very close to K-1's AF - it depends on lenses, of course. Some from Penta-Club (Russia) users have the both cameras and found K-1+85/1.4 is even better than D810+85/1.4G.

07-07-2016, 09:56 PM	#158
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Originally posted by Class A I reviewed the K-1 review by DPReview and award it the coveted Tin Award. Class A, do you mind if I post a link to this on DPR? I think your wit and wisdom should be shared with a wider audience

07-07-2016, 10:45 PM	#159
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,706	Just boycott the site. Let them feel something.

07-07-2016, 11:43 PM	#161
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by monochrome Sock-puppet? Not at all. Rosemember (who now posted a series of tests using a K-3, some lenses and his dog) has a valid identity.

07-07-2016, 11:46 PM	#162
Barry Pearson Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Stockport Posts: 964	Originally posted by monochrome @Barry_Pearson (not quoting your entire post - extended conversations on an iPhone don't work well) At one time I got pretty good at center point AF.C shooting college lacrosse. My son played X-Attack and when I kept the AF point at belt height, moved the camera and pulled zoom I had a high in-focus rate even with a DA55-300. The key of course is being willing and able to move the camera. Yes! It takes practice, but it can be very effective. I've just posted a 13-frame sequence showing how center point focusing can be useful where different subjects need to be focused on in mid burst. I assume that is hard to achieve with camera-tracking. It seems to me that when it is important to follow the action, rather than follow a single subject within the action, this has to be left to the photographer rather than the camera.

07-07-2016, 11:52 PM	#163
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by KDD By Rishi Sany al Copy and paste from dpreview. And yet despite all these variables, the same patterns are observed across multiple runs, over different days, over periods of years: Canon DSLRs refocus in Z-axis very well (save for the occasional hiccup, like the 80D), w/ a lower hit-rate when conflating subject tracking (X-Y movement). Nikon DSLRs nail everything. That is the core of the bashing/fanboy problem. They have zero comparison data from the peer cameras Nikon D610 and Canon 6D (they chose the peers) using the same nonsense-"test" setup. But yet a fanboy/basher comes along with the broadest statement "brand x nail everything". That is just a made up lie with ill intentions and shows their "spirit". Their old D610 test showed 6 images where 2 (33%) where fails (in a much, much more favorable setting). Their simple task is to run the exact same test on a peer group of cameras and give us measurable results of the type model X had 60% hit rate, model Y had 75%. Even just the fact, that someone refers to a brand instead of a model is a strong indication of bashing/trolling/fanboy. A German paper did a much more scientific and repeatable AF test (no Pentax) and the results are all over the place. The broke off some Sony A7II test, because it was so bad. One of the tests had the Nikon model end up with 0% hit rate. Things are not that easy. Negative over generalization without facts. It is the exact same "logic" that applies when people take one hearsay incident involving a minority group X and then pick up torches and pitchforks to "hang all Xs". That is how hate crime is initiated.

07-07-2016, 11:53 PM	#164
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,197	I've been thinking about this review, and our reactions to it. As has been pointed out, the general conclusion here seems to be that most of the review was fair, but that their comments about the K-1's AF were unfair, or at least not wholly consistent with our own experience. Certainly, as I posted earlier, my experience of tracking AF (which was at night in a longish room fitted with banks of fluorescent lights, thus requiring a high ISO setting to get the shutter speed and aperture required) was much more favourable, though I wasn't using their method of single-point AF. I replied to a post that suggested the DPR test results were dishonest, saying I thought they may have been described as intellectually dishonest. I should add that I meant by that remark, that the test was incomplete in that it used a single AF mode, was subject to variables like lighting intensity and direction, the bicycle rider's behaviour and the was influenced by the selection of an odd focus area on the subject. Drawing a conclusion about the overall performance of the camera's AF system was therefore tenuous, to say the least, and even intellectually dishonest. As with Tony Northrup's review, what I think may be happening here has an element of reviewers having got used to the behaviour of other systems, and finding that the resultant effect on their ways of working with those systems haven't translated well into working with Pentax products. Unlike some other PF members, I don't believe it's as simple as their main sponsors influencing their judgment. Many of their contributors write or wrote for Amateur Photographer, which is a publication I've enjoyed for many years, so I'd hope that their work for another employer wouldn't adversely alter their ethical standards. However, aside from that, I thought the review's conclusions about the K-1 were mostly fair. We need to stay with them, and use logic to challenge things we genuinely disagree with. Constructive discourse is far preferable to shouting matches, let alone media warfare. DPReview is read by a lot of people, so I don't think a boycott of the site is wise or, indeed, helpful.

07-08-2016, 12:55 AM	#165
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Boy, now the Editor has responded to the user pointing out to him, that his explicit answer on the AF point used for the single point test (the one on the knees) had no relation to truth: Originally posted by Rishi Sanyal: First of all, I didn't write this review. Do you see my name on the author list? There was a miscommunication about which set of images the author ended up including ... All you've managed to do is nitpick something that has absolutely no relevance or bearing to the conclusion or review. If I got caught lying about stealing some chocolate my mom certainly would have loved to hear "First of all, I am not in charge of protecting the chocolate. All you've managed to do is nitpick something that has absolutely no relevance or bearing to the economics of our household." The good part about these kinds of situations is that people let go of their masks and you get to see their true being.