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07-13-2016, 04:06 AM - 1 Like   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Well, those are things that help Pentax stand out in the market. If Pentax left those items off and introduced a K-1 with auto focus that, say, matched a D750 it would be a pretty forgettable camera. At the same time, it is clear that Pentax engineers are working on auto focus and have brought real changes and improvements over time, beginning with the K3 (up till then, all cameras, even the 645D had the same 11 point auto focus system). The changes are evolutionary but, I would expect them to continue.

The K-1 at this point is good enough for most things, except sports, where even if it had better auto focus, it would still lag in frame rates and buffer size. Few people use a D810 for sports and it doesn't have much to do with auto focus.
At 2000/1800 if it only had D750 AF and D810 36MP it would still be fantastic value and that would be an argument.

I think that this is rather different, Pentax master in body SR and the derived products (pixel shift, optional AA, astrotracer, sensor shift, ensure the horizon is straight). Adding one more feature to it or tweak it differently is easy. AF is still something where they don't have the knowledge in house and were they may need millions of investment for years for it to catch up. They started and got K1 AF sensor, but if they keep the same pace, it will be 3-5 year before they catch up D750 and 5-10 before they could compete with D5/D500.

I mean they kind of no choice. They can't just buy AF from Nikon.

More to that, the future (10 years and up) might be in sensor PDAF and mirroless so it may not much sense to try to emulate D5/D500... It is more interresting to make stuning AF on mirrorless the competition is not as advanced and everybody still at the early stage here while it is clearly the future.

So for me Penbtax should try to get to D750 levels for their DSLR, but there no point to go past that, really for the SLR part of the market.

07-13-2016, 05:39 AM   #107
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The assumption here seems to be that Pentax auto focus is lousy. The reality is that for everything but tracking, Pentax auto focus is excellent and even with regard to tracking, Pentax is more than adequate for everything but sports. I do expect incremental improvements in auto focus, but I do not expect Pentax to go after the sports market. Most folks interested in sports bolted long ago.

As to mirrorless versus SLR, I think we are going to reach the point where they are both good enough that it doesn't matter and performance will be more limited by lenses (focus throw distance, strength of in-lens motors) than the camera body. With the D5/D500 we are pretty close to that point.
07-13-2016, 05:50 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The assumption here seems to be that Pentax auto focus is lousy. The reality is that for everything but tracking, Pentax auto focus is excellent and even with regard to tracking, Pentax is more than adequate for everything but sports. I do expect incremental improvements in auto focus, but I do not expect Pentax to go after the sports market. Most folks interested in sports bolted long ago.
So right. If you bought a t K1 for sports and action shooting, then you will never get one of those "Big Brain Thinking" awards around here. But....you might get one of those "What the Hell Were You Thinking?" awards!

Reminds me of years ago when I special ordered Mrs Rupert a new Jeep Wrangler. She was looking at Consumer Reports for information and it fell far short of her expectations.......until I pointed out to her that the idiots there compared it to a Nissan Maxima.

There is a responsibility to know what you are buying and why you are buying it. Apparently that is lost on some that want a Maxima ride in a Jeep body.

Regards!
07-13-2016, 06:42 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Reminds me of years ago when I special ordered Mrs Rupert a new Jeep Wrangler. She was looking at Consumer Reports for information and it fell far short of her expectations.......until I pointed out to her that the idiots there compared it to a Nissan Maxima.
Looks like AF speed racing turns out to be like race horses on which we bet to make money in case of successful prognosis about which one will score the shortest time to arrival. You don't ride the horse, the only thing you do is to buy a ticket to bet on the next AF reviewer's review. On the other hand, some other people don't buy the ticket for watching the horse race, and ride a donkey instead, but at least they ride something.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-13-2016 at 07:00 AM.
07-13-2016, 08:28 AM - 1 Like   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Did you have the "hold AF" setting set to off? If not, this would add a delay before the camera attempts to re-acquire focus, and it could explain the outcome.
I think this setting is one of the most poorly understood and misused functions of both the K3 and K1.

AF holds are meant to be used more for horizontal tracking rather than subjects moving in and out of a small DoF window. Additionally, ANY AF Hold should also never be used in more than 3-4 frame bursts because the subject will have exited that window (depending on its speed) within that .5 to .75 seconds.

I have found that I'm getting pretty decent results BIF with single point focus priority release by feathering the AF while tracking. If I get a focus lock and it looks in focus to me, I shoot off a 2-3 shot burst. I was shooting diving arctic terns with a Sigma 500 f4.5 for about a hour in Haines and found the SEL9 didn't really track the smallish birds very well. This past 4th of July weekend, I spent about 45 minutes shooting hummingbirds using the same concepts and the same 500mm lens. I actually think I had about a 60% success rate. I also photographed about a dozen BNSF engines travelling a bit faster than a bicyclist and had no issues with AF keeping up. But then again, I shoot 3-4 shots bursts, recompose, reacquire and reshoot.

I've owned the K10, K20, K5iis, K3 and now the K1. I can say without hesitation, the K1 AF is superior to all previous K-mount bodies.
Maybe the 20 shot test" is Pentax's Achilles heel, but in some ways it's a ridiculously contrived test. I don't shoot the Tour deFrance for a living, but I suppose if I did, I'd have to get a Canikon. But for about 98% of all other action shots, that "bicyclist test" just not "real world."

I've managed to shoot airshows, NASCAR, CanAm and Hydroplanes with a K3 and get enough "keepers" to meet personal and/or editorial requirements. I've shot alongside Canikon pros, so I fully understand the limits and differences between the systems. I also understand I am primarily a landscape photographer and self-funded. Self-funded being a very important differential.

I've posted in several threads, I almost jumped ship for the d810, but the K1 is "close enough" now that I really have no justification to switch brands other than to join the Canikon herd. I'll stick around a little longer if for nothing else that to get snide comments from my shooting buddies such as, "wow, you managed THAT with a Pentax?"

I wish we could just all accept the fact the K1 is NOT a D5 and just move on. I also wish that a lot of these people doing these AF tracking tests were far more qualified. Just because you can set up a camera on a tripod and trigger it with a remote, doesn't mean you can get valid test results. Let's see a review of Pentax AF from some credentialed action shooter who's had the K1 for 3-4 months. I bet the review would be pretty positive.
07-13-2016, 10:43 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote
I have found that I'm getting pretty decent results BIF with single point focus priority release by feathering the AF while tracking. If I get a focus lock and it looks in focus to me, I shoot off a 2-3 shot burst. I was shooting diving arctic terns with a Sigma 500 f4.5 for about a hour in Haines and found the SEL9 didn't really track the smallish birds very well. This past 4th of July weekend, I spent about 45 minutes shooting hummingbirds using the same concepts and the same 500mm lens. I actually think I had about a 60% success rate. I also photographed about a dozen BNSF engines travelling a bit faster than a bicyclist and had no issues with AF keeping up. But then again, I shoot 3-4 shots bursts, recompose, reacquire and reshoot. I've owned the K10, K20, K5iis, K3 and now the K1. I can say without hesitation, the K1 AF is superior to all previous K-mount bodies. Maybe the 20 shot test" is Pentax's Achilles heel, but in some ways it's a ridiculously contrived test. I don't shoot the Tour deFrance for a living, but I suppose if I did, I'd have to get a Canikon. But for about 98% of all other action shots, that "bicyclist test" just not "real world."
That's about what I think as well, getting at least 70% in perfect focus, worst case. I've also observed other things, but why share your observations about AF behavior if it's like talking to a wall or a drop of water in the ocean. Some year ago, very relevant information about AF was posted, I really appreciated some clarification from some Pentax veterans , but I just notice that all this was forgotten. You can post a 15 shots burst in focus, and only a few month later , someone will show up saying Pentax AF is crap because he gets 30% shots in focus.
07-13-2016, 05:14 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote
I think this setting is one of the most poorly understood and misused functions of both the K3 and K1.

AF holds are meant to be used more for horizontal tracking rather than subjects moving in and out of a small DoF window. Additionally, ANY AF Hold should also never be used in more than 3-4 frame bursts because the subject will have exited that window (depending on its speed) within that .5 to .75 seconds.

I have found that I'm getting pretty decent results BIF with single point focus priority release by feathering the AF while tracking. If I get a focus lock and it looks in focus to me, I shoot off a 2-3 shot burst. I was shooting diving arctic terns with a Sigma 500 f4.5 for about a hour in Haines and found the SEL9 didn't really track the smallish birds very well. This past 4th of July weekend, I spent about 45 minutes shooting hummingbirds using the same concepts and the same 500mm lens. I actually think I had about a 60% success rate. I also photographed about a dozen BNSF engines travelling a bit faster than a bicyclist and had no issues with AF keeping up. But then again, I shoot 3-4 shots bursts, recompose, reacquire and reshoot.

I've owned the K10, K20, K5iis, K3 and now the K1. I can say without hesitation, the K1 AF is superior to all previous K-mount bodies.
Maybe the 20 shot test" is Pentax's Achilles heel, but in some ways it's a ridiculously contrived test. I don't shoot the Tour deFrance for a living, but I suppose if I did, I'd have to get a Canikon. But for about 98% of all other action shots, that "bicyclist test" just not "real world."

I've managed to shoot airshows, NASCAR, CanAm and Hydroplanes with a K3 and get enough "keepers" to meet personal and/or editorial requirements. I've shot alongside Canikon pros, so I fully understand the limits and differences between the systems. I also understand I am primarily a landscape photographer and self-funded. Self-funded being a very important differential.

I've posted in several threads, I almost jumped ship for the d810, but the K1 is "close enough" now that I really have no justification to switch brands other than to join the Canikon herd. I'll stick around a little longer if for nothing else that to get snide comments from my shooting buddies such as, "wow, you managed THAT with a Pentax?"

I wish we could just all accept the fact the K1 is NOT a D5 and just move on. I also wish that a lot of these people doing these AF tracking tests were far more qualified. Just because you can set up a camera on a tripod and trigger it with a remote, doesn't mean you can get valid test results. Let's see a review of Pentax AF from some credentialed action shooter who's had the K1 for 3-4 months. I bet the review would be pretty positive.
A friend got a new Canon aps-c with their expensive zoom, can't remember the model numbers, but more expensive than a K3II and similar to the 150-450. He fought with the thing for about a month, then started getting very very nice results.

I disregard any review from someone who shot with the thing for a few days. Tracking AF and any real shooting of moving subjects is difficult and requires both capable equipment and skills. There are few people who can pick up a body and lens combination and get good results from it. Everyone does things differently. So learn the equipment.

That being said, over time you learn the abilities and lack of every combination.
07-14-2016, 10:19 AM   #113
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I have done sports (soccer for example) and birding with my K-3II. The AF is is just fine (Spot AF, Spot Metering, No AF lock, Continuous mode). I get keepers almost one after another if I am tracking my subject. The K-1 is most likely as good or better, being the newer model. I know my AF can handle any common sport, because I know how to use my camera.

07-17-2016, 05:53 PM   #114
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This has a new record over on DPR for most comments.
07-18-2016, 05:00 AM   #115
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Thanks to Rishi
07-18-2016, 05:06 AM   #116
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Rishi, who warned the "Pentax fanboys" to keep quiet, otherwise he would publish even worse results.
07-18-2016, 05:10 AM   #117
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I find his behaviour unprofessional. He is a staff member, he should not get involved in forum rows. I know dpreview has a policy of reacting back on the front page, but Rishi is taking it to far. He is taking it and making it personal.
07-18-2016, 08:18 AM   #118
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It May be said already, but I'd also like to point out that K-1 has a great improvement over K-3 on focus accuracy. Especially when shooting bird through branches. K-3 had a lot of trouble on finding that brown small bird from bush. Green leaves and branches was too much and MF too slow. Now K-1 can do it really nice. Maybe not 100% but it still works for 70% or more.

That is improvement. And a big one for me. Also it holds focus really well in panning shots.

I like my K-3 but K-1 is better.
So in my style of shooting with my gear it is improvement. Have to not take pictures of bicyclists and I'll be fine.
07-18-2016, 08:34 AM - 1 Like   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
It May be said already, but I'd also like to point out that K-1 has a great improvement over K-3 on focus accuracy. Especially when shooting bird through branches.
I noticed this right away...the first Pentax I have owned that will lock focus in a brushy frame on the subject you are wanting to shoot...and hold that focus!

Not to mention shooting in the dark at 1/40 handheld with a big ol' Bigma @ ISO 12800! Of course, I didn't ask him to ride his bicycle toward me....but I bet he would have!


Regards!
07-18-2016, 08:35 AM   #120
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Rupert, there are some good people there (and beautiful images to be seen, too!).
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