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08-06-2016, 10:46 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
It's a tough bunch here at PF and you can't ever speak out of turn about bad experiences without being labeled a troll or incompetent.
.
QuoteOriginally posted by Darcy Quote
It is too bad on the lack of open mindedness. I didn't post anything about my grip problems because I thought it cause nothing but backlash too. Which is also what Tony Thorpe got on his first review of the K-1. Its still a great camera and got a lot going for it. I do feel disappointed having taking the plunge into Pentax and K1 and selling off all my Canon. Not making a decision yet on the move and hoping Ricoh can correct some of these issues.
QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
I've suffered backlash here before, really nasty, I think it was over the QC on FA31's (mine was an utter dog of a lens). I stopped posting for so long I forgot my log in details and only started a new account because I got a K-1.

PF needs to stop with the fanboy nonsense and concentrate on making a nice, friendly and helpful community that flags problems and issues up to Pentax/Ricoh (because yes, the AF-C sucks on all their cameras).
Indeed, the K-1 seems to brought out the worst in many "Pentaxians". We often get judged by the company we keep and the way it has been going I would not feel bad at all putting a strip of gaffers tape over the "PENTAX" logo on my cameras.

08-06-2016, 10:50 AM   #47
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I won't be ashamed for choosing Pentax; and if some people take offense at that and are "judging" me, it's their problem. Not mine.
08-06-2016, 10:54 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
I've suffered backlash here before, really nasty, I think it was over the QC on FA31's (mine was an utter dog of a lens). I stopped posting for so long I forgot my log in details and only started a new account because I got a K-1.

PF needs to stop with the fanboy nonsense and concentrate on making a nice, friendly and helpful community that flags problems and issues up to Pentax/Ricoh (because yes, the AF-C sucks on all their cameras).
Most here are friendly, for those who are not there's always the "Ignored Users" list.

I've currently got over 30 on my Ignored Users list. That's many times more than I have on the many other photography blogs that I participate in. Here's an idea for Adam to make the site more friendly/helpful - analyze all of the members who are on everyone's "ignore list" and then permanently ban the top 50 on the list!!!

It's a shame that some here actually work at and celebrate being on as many "Ignored Users" lists as possible (e.g. boriscleto). What message does allowing this behavior to continue sent to the membership?

Last edited by Fenwoodian; 08-06-2016 at 11:34 AM.
08-06-2016, 11:25 AM - 3 Likes   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
Most here are friendly, for those who are not there's always the "Ignored Users" list.

I've currently got over 30 on my Ignored Users list. That's many times more than I have on the many other photography blogs that I participate in. Here's an idea for Adam to make the site more friendly/helpful - analyze all of the members who are on everyone's "ignore list" and then permanently ban the top 50 on the list!!!
Damn that's harsh. The epitome of punishing the colourful and elevating the bland.

I say, people who want to belong to that forum, go start your own forum.

Most of the people on my ignore list are there because interactions between us tend to go negative. We avoid the negative by ignoring each other. And to me, that doesn't alter the fact that we both have a contribution to make. I've ignored them, but given the power, I wouldn't ban them.

When folks start thinking about who should be kicked out of Adam's site, that's a sure sign they aren't mature enough to be here. Even my arch rival , top of my ignore list, every time I interact with him it turns into a shouting match, has helped out a pile of people here and is well regarded by many, myself included. When we get in the same thread things fall apart, different ways of explaining things, different communications styles.

So we are mature enough to ignore each other. Why would that be grounds for banning either of us?

The first thing you'd see would be cliques within the forum getting organized to ignore everyone they didn't like and getting them banned from the site. I've seen it happen on every site I've seen that has adopted this type of approach.

For each of us we are here for the people who comprehend what we are saying. Not so much for the ones that can't understand us.

The ones I would ban would be the ones too immature too sift through the posts to find the information they need, without being upset by those who see things differently.

As forum, we are always skeptical when someone who's expertise we are not familiar with, who has posted very little, who has made an effort to pass on knowledge to almost no one, turns up and starts ragging on about how "bad Pentax ruined my life."

We only get the "my life is ruined part", we're never so sure it was Pentax's fault.

From some perspectives my life is ruined. I choose not to dwell on that, for my own life, much less someone else's. Every day is a fresh start.

IF Pentax ruined your life get up and get after them.... do what you have to do, and if you want to complain to your friends so be it, but unless you've been here, done a few things that helped people out, contributed to the knowledge base added at least 5 reviews to the camera and lens data bases, don't assume we are those kinds of friends. We don't know you, and if we can't find out anything about you when we look at your posts, posted images etc. we aren't going to act like the kind of friends you can dump all your bsggage on.


Last edited by normhead; 08-06-2016 at 11:39 AM.
08-06-2016, 11:27 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Darcy Quote
-smc PENTAX-D FA Macro 100mm F2.8 WR, -5 with massive deviation. see attached.
I don't have the LensAlign tool and therefore cannot run that experiment myself, but perhaps you could try to set the camera to AF-C and keep tapping the AF-button (half-shutter press or back-button, shouldn't make a difference) until the camera stops making adjustments?

On previous camera models, the above focusing approach seemed to have increased consistency/accuracy compared to pure AF-S. It would be interesting to learn whether this trick still works for the K-1. If it does, it would be great news, AFAIC, because it would mean that AF-S performance could be improved by a respective firmware change.
08-06-2016, 11:39 AM - 1 Like   #51
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Long-term members have dealt with many new members who pop in with some spurious 'fault' claim, stir things up and then disappear. Some members respond angrily; some are skeptical and ask for proofs; some try to suggest solutions; sometimes a member has encountered the same problem and offers the accepted fix.

A new member cannot possibly distinguish the good guys from the cranks and will likely assume Pentax users are simply fanboys. It isn't true, but for those who have been here a long time it's unfortunate but understandable that new members might think so.

Is it fair to the few legitimate issue posters? No, of course not.

Do Pentax users tire of explaining things to new users who expect a Pentax to behave like a Canon or Nikon? Yes, daily.

Is it fair to new members? No, of course not.

Over time one of four things happens
  • The issue is resolved with explanations
  • The issue is explained but the user remains unsatisfied, critical of the Pentax Way
  • The issue is not explained, is real, attracts more like posts and members 'see the light'.
  • The OP disappears

In my experience #4 is the most common.

K-1 is attracting many new users to Pentax who are unfamiliar with operations and conventions we accept and take for granted. Often these posts that feel innocent to the OP have a ring of criticism to Pentax users that has gotten very old (my new Pentax sux because it does/doesn't do THIS and CaNikon doesn't/does).

Is that fair?

I don't know. Maybe.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-06-2016 at 08:30 PM.
08-06-2016, 01:06 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Long-term members have dealt with many new members who pop in with some spurious 'fault' claim, stir things up and then disappear. Some members respond angrily; some are skeptical and ask for proofs; some try to suggest solutions; sometimes a member has encountered the same problem and offers the accepted fix.

A new member cannot possibly distinguish the good guys from the cranks and will likely assume Pentax users are simply fanboys. It isn't true, but for those who have been here a long time it's unfortunate but understandable that new members might think so.

Is it fair to the few legitimate issue posters? No, of course not.

Do Pentax users tire of explaining to new users who expect a Pentax to behave like a Canon or Nikon? Yes, daily.

Is it fair to new members? No, of course not.

Over time one of four things happens
  • The issue is resolved with explanations
  • The issue is explained but the user remains unsatisfied, critical of the Pentax Way
  • The issue is not explained, is real, attracts more like posts and members 'see the light'.
  • The OP disappears

In my experience #4 is the most common.

K-1 is attracting many new users to Pentax who are unfamiliar with operations and conventions we accept and take for granted. Often these posts that feel innocent to the OP have a ring of criticism to Pentax users that has gotten very old (my new Pentax sux because it does/doesn't do THIS and CaNikon doesn't/does).

Is that fair?

I don't know. Maybe.
Thus far its been an objective post. Being an ex Canon user, I knew I was giving some things up. But I was gaining as well. But I haven't formed an overall conclusion yet.
08-06-2016, 01:40 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by tomO2013 Quote
On the one hand I'm frustrated at this, on the other I'm delighted to know that there are others out there with the same problem so it is not an isolated incident and will hopefully get attention from Ricoh.
I should hope so! The mirror should never impinge on the image area during exposure or live view. Any word yet what remedy Ricoh Canada suggests?


Steve

08-06-2016, 02:27 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Darcy Quote
My conclusion: their AF system needs work...
What were you expecting to see that would have indicated competent AF? This is an honest question and not trolling. Did you get better consistency overall with your Canon gear when measured using FocusTune?

FocusTune intrigues me because it provides a data-centric approach that accounts for statistical variation. It has been my opinion for some time that most users would not fiddle with AF fine tuning if they saw a plot of detected plane-of-focus for 20 attempts at a flat target. PDAF precision is not that great, even best case. Except for the cost for LensAlign + FocusTune, I think it would be fun to do statistical analysis using the tool.


Steve
08-06-2016, 05:30 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
a nice, friendly and helpful community that flags problems and issues up to Pentax/Ricoh
A very common problem is that not all of these 'problems or issues' are well identified at all, or properly tested, and their problem report is told in an angry way.

Too often we see a user blunder through a focus test, or have a bad day shooting an event with their mis-configured or unfamiliar new camera, post no images with EXIF, and then spray the forum with spite about Pentax.
08-08-2016, 06:02 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What were you expecting to see that would have indicated competent AF? This is an honest question and not trolling. Did you get better consistency overall with your Canon gear when measured using FocusTune?

FocusTune intrigues me because it provides a data-centric approach that accounts for statistical variation. It has been my opinion for some time that most users would not fiddle with AF fine tuning if they saw a plot of detected plane-of-focus for 20 attempts at a flat target. PDAF precision is not that great, even best case. Except for the cost for LensAlign + FocusTune, I think it would be fun to do statistical analysis using the tool.


Steve
I never noticed a focus problem with my canon, nor my 1st K-1 body other than my sigma 24-70, which I chalked up to a poor rendition of the lens.

However with my second K-1 body, I was noticing none of my lenses were focusing right, so I bought lens align to help me fine tune things. With the alignment my shots are much better.

As for the expectation question: I knew when switching from Canon the AF wasn't going to track a moving target as well. But I was expecting accuracy and consistency especially with portrait work.
08-08-2016, 11:02 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I should hope so! The mirror should never impinge on the image area during exposure or live view. Any word yet what remedy Ricoh Canada suggests?


Steve
No response yet unfortunately - not since the suggestion to upload firmware 1.2 (which doesn't fix the problem for me unfortunately).
08-08-2016, 12:13 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Darcy Quote
As for the expectation question: I knew when switching from Canon the AF wasn't going to track a moving target as well. But I was expecting accuracy and consistency especially with portrait work.
That is fairly vague. Are you saying a high percentage of missed focus with fixed focus point and nominally stationary subject? Again, I am not trolling. I am considering a K-1 purchase and would be very surprised if the AF was less competent than what I experience on my K-3. You are moving from an EOS 7D II, right?


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 08-08-2016 at 12:23 PM.
08-08-2016, 12:40 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I am considering a K-1 purchase and would be very surprised if the AF was less competent than what I experience on my K-3.
Steve, I really wish it is true and very possibly it is true: K1's af system is a step forward from K3 and it is best one in pentax's product. BUT, my personal experience says, at least the quality control of the AF system assembly or alignment should be better. You must get a good K1, but unfortunately some of us, me included, have to go through serval bodies to find one that works fine. 3 bodies had to be returned for different AF issues, which is beyond normal variation level. And please believe me, I know how to test a camera and a lens and I had set the cameras appropriately for the testing, and I understand what shall we expect from PDAF.
As said, if I hadn't had the 1st K1 in my hand, which works great, I would have request return and refund, in stead of keep trying 3 bodies. It is not fun to test and calibrate each lens, very time consuming and very annoying particularly if you finally realize the camera has AF inaccuracy and inconsistency issues that are beyond the capacity of AF adjusting it provides.
08-08-2016, 01:01 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by grahame Quote
if you finally realize the camera has AF inaccuracy and inconsistency issues...
At the risk of sounding snarky, which was it, accuracy or precision? It is difficult to evaluate the former if the latter is lacking, at least not without a little statistics. (/snarky ) If I remember correctly, you also shoot an A7II. Do you find the hybrid AF on that camera easier to work with?


Steve
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