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08-02-2016, 05:41 PM   #1
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Quality Control issues with K1

Hi,

I've waited a good while before posting this as I am currently hoping that Ricoh Canada can help me out.

I am currently on K1 body number 3!

Body #1 : arrived on release day. This body had noticeable dust within the OVF. Yes it is small but when you order a brand new camera I don't feel that it is unreasonable to expect it to be dust free within the viewfinder.
My dealer (McBain camera) was excellent and swapped this for me for a second body.

Body #2: Has had erratic focus issues (see my prior post on FA Limited issues - many lenses had a propensity to severely backfocus - well outside of the available fine tune adjust. I posted graphs and images in another thread of my test setup with focus tune and Lens align iv across a number of test runs. Unfortunately this problem extended to newer more modern lenses such as the DFA * 70-200 etc... DFA 150-450. Live view or manual focus would obviously work fine. However this body looked to consistently back focus across all lenses requiring at a minimum adjustment near the extreme available fine tune adjust. I brought graphs, sample images and camera into McBain who thankfully provided me with a third body to try.

Body #3: Focus adjustment was needed with this body but in general focustune only required -1 across the majority of my lenses. The DFA 150-450 does not focus properly with this body though however looks to focus ok with the K3ii. I took this camera on a wedding shoot recently. Unfortunately the live view caused the mirror mechanism to get 'stuck' in the live view mode half way into mirror lock up i.e. you could see a partial live view but with large black outline of the mirror obscuring half of the rear live view. ( I will provide video/photos of this problem later).
Another issue that I have noticed is that the grip is starting to feel 'looser' in my hand, as in there is some play in the grip itself where it meets the camera body. Currently I am hoping that Ricoh canada are going to help me out here. However I am reluctant to take the K1 out on professional assignment until I get a body that I feel does not exhibit the same issues as I descrived with Body 2 and Body 3. I will update here with more info on how I progress and the level of professional support that Ricoh can provide.

As it stands, I love the K1 file output quality, the feel of the FA limited lenses and the tactile controls of the K1. However I am quite frustrated as I had purchased this camera for part-time professional work and have invested heavily in glass 24-70 2.8, DFA * 70-200, DFA 15-30, 31mm, 43mm and 77mm limited lenses.

I've confirmed on a K3ii that the lenses themselves are fine.

Has anybody else here experienced any of these issues?

08-02-2016, 06:01 PM   #2
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That's a run of bad luck. Do post about how it's resolved.
08-02-2016, 06:11 PM   #3
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Sorry to hear that. I thought I was the only one had to go through 3 bodies (actually 4, but the first one was dropped so that was my false, and that one doesn't count).
1st one (repurchasing after damaged 1st one) had some strange AF issue: 1) focusing point shifts when the camera was at portrait or landscape position, constantly arcross all my lenses, and has nothing to do with the focusing target 2) live view AF CDAF is not accurate, it actually off by a lot and one can see the problem on back screen. Had to send it back
2nd came in 40 days after return, and this one front focus very terribly. All my lenses needed more than -8 adjustment, many needed more than -10. and most of them AF fine on K5IIs. It had to go back
3rd arrived very shortly after. this time almost all lenses back focus by quite a lot. most still within +4 to+10 adjustment range so I decided to keep it. but 10 days later all lenses need extra +2 to +3 to get accurate focusing. I feel bad for BH (they have been great in supporting) and decided to send the camera for warrantee service rather than return and exchange again.

If I hadn't had 1st one working perfectly, I wouldn't have the confidence to keep trying. Pentax need to do better!
08-02-2016, 06:13 PM   #4
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It's normal for different lenses to require different adjustments on different bodies. With shallower DoF on FF, even small inaccuracies may be easier to notice, especially with fast teles like the 77mm.


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08-02-2016, 06:23 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
It's normal for different lenses to require different adjustments on different bodies.
That is expected. But 2nd one front focuses so much that many of my lenses could not be corrected even set -10. and ironically 3rd one came and showed back focusing by quite a lot. and worst part is, the amount of adjustment changed in 10 days and I had to recheck all of them. I hope pentax can fix the problem.
08-02-2016, 07:55 PM   #6
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I agree - I have seen some horrific focus issues.

See the attached situation with the 70-200 on body 2.

I will happily upload more for the FA limited which simply focus erratically across a number of tests.

Lens align was setup at the X25 and X50 focal lengths recommended by the distance developed by Michael Tapes.

Camera and lens setup on tripod with confirmed alignment via the grey dots tool.

After each adjustment I manually reset to infinity, then put the camera into AF mode again (being sure not to move the camera body or alignment).

Focus tune confirms what my eyes see with respect to front and back-focus issues but more disconcerting graphs across a number of test runs similar erratic behaviour in the AF module that can only be attributed in my opinion to firmware.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf FTA_Pen-K1_200mm_AFA_160716_020146.pdf (38.1 KB, 168 views)
08-02-2016, 09:01 PM   #7
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Sorry to hear that, my luck its been diferent (knocking on wood) i havent needed any correction on any of my lenses, but i havent used the 150-450, the newest lenses only have been the DFA70-200 wich have been spot on every time, same with my trio of FA ltd's and couple of DFA macros.
08-02-2016, 09:06 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by virusn3t Quote
my luck its been diferent (knocking on wood) i havent needed any correction on any of my lenses,
Good for you!
should I return and exchange for another one and hope I can get same good luck on 4th try? I am hesitating to call B&H for the same reason of AF issue. I am afraid B&H might think I have no idea how to use AF lenses or I have collected lot of problematic lenses and will put me on a black list.

08-02-2016, 09:34 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by tomO2013 Quote
Unfortunately the live view caused the mirror mechanism to get 'stuck' in the live view mode half way into mirror lock up i.e. you could see a partial live view but with large black outline of the mirror obscuring half of the rear live view.
Is your description above what is being shown in the photo by 'gryhnd' in the sixth post down on this thread page? https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/319873-post-k-1-bugs-issue...-ricoh-18.html

If this is what you've seen, then yes I've had this problem, and I mostly experience it when pressing live view when the drive mode is set to mirror lock up; though not exclusively as I've had it occur whilst in other drove modes. When it's happened to me the mirror is down in live view instead of flipping up and it looks just like the image in that thread.

I'd certainly like to hear if you've got the same issue or something different please.

Tas
08-02-2016, 09:35 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by tomO2013 Quote
Focus tune confirms what my eyes see with respect to front and back-focus issues but more disconcerting graphs across a number of test runs similar erratic behaviour in the AF module that can only be attributed in my opinion to firmware.
Three observations:

I don't use the FocusTune software, but based on the report and the online video, I would question your methodology. My understanding is that there are supposed to be ten images per adjustment point (X-axis) such that there is a distribution of points on the Y-axis to account for system precision.

The report indicates AF-S release priority, meaning that the shutter will release regardless of whether focus has been attained. If that was truly the case, the possibility exists that you did not attain focus for one or more of the points. Focus priority would be appropriate.

I know it is not part of the LensAlign protocol, but what was your control to rule out lens defect, i.e. a lens that cannot be focused using the AF drive and/or manual ring? (I would suggest CDAF followed by manual focus with magnified live view.)


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 08-02-2016 at 10:10 PM.
08-02-2016, 11:46 PM   #11
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Focus mode was AFS with focus priority. Definitely strange AF behaviour. 3rd body behaves a little better with some glass but still focus behavior can be described as erratic.

---------- Post added 08-03-16 at 01:17 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Tas Quote
Is your description above what is being shown in the photo by 'gryhnd' in the sixth post down on this thread page? https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/319873-post-k-1-bugs-issue...-ricoh-18.html

If this is what you've seen, then yes I've had this problem, and I mostly experience it when pressing live view when the drive mode is set to mirror lock up; though not exclusively as I've had it occur whilst in other drove modes. When it's happened to me the mirror is down in live view instead of flipping up and it looks just like the image in that thread.

I'd certainly like to hear if you've got the same issue or something different please.

Tas
Yes that is exactly the behaviour I'm seeing - and it has happened a number times when I least wanted it to act up.

I have a video that I sent into Ricoh Canada over a week ago, so far I have not heard anything back - I've attached it to this thread in the hope that it will get some attention or some other users will pipe up with the same issue.

Please ignore my voice over (I mixed up liveview on/off and shutter [ I do know the difference!] ), I was hacked off that the camera had done this (yet again) during the wedding when I needed it and just muddle my words under pressure.


Note that this time in the video the camera resets itself immediately after pressing live view on/off. On more than one occasion it has taken a number of attempts.

---------- Post added 08-03-16 at 01:28 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Three observations:

I don't use the FocusTune software, but based on the report and the online video, I would question your methodology. My understanding is that there are supposed to be ten images per adjustment point (X-axis) such that there is a distribution of points on the Y-axis to account for system precision.

The report indicates AF-S release priority, meaning that the shutter will release regardless of whether focus has been attained. If that was truly the case, the possibility exists that you did not attain focus for one or more of the points. Focus priority would be appropriate.

I know it is not part of the LensAlign protocol, but what was your control to rule out lens defect, i.e. a lens that cannot be focused using the AF drive and/or manual ring? (I would suggest CDAF followed by manual focus with magnified live view.)


Steve
Hi Steve,

A number of things - AF focus priority should mean that the camera only releases the shutter once it has acquired lock. The camera was on a tripod, and shutter was released with remote timer delay of 3 seconds (to rule out the chances of me introducing shake).

The video from Michael Tapes is actually bang on and a slight 'erratic' nature to the graphs would be expected as the camera uses both information from off sensor PDAF AND also lookup tables to derive what it believes to be the correct focal point.

I checked each lens for defects and tested on a K3ii, there are no obvious decentering issues etc....

The FA limited 31 and 43 do exhibit pretty bad coma close to wide open and this is where I tested the lenses - I did not buy fast glass to shoot at F8 all the time

The K1 in live view could focus accurately. Note again that the 3rd body is better in many respects to the 2nd body from an AF perspective so I'm confident that it is not a glass issue.

Last edited by tomO2013; 08-03-2016 at 12:20 AM.
08-03-2016, 12:55 AM   #12
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This is a bit irritating to say the least, the production rate of K-1 are really low due to sensor shortage so one would think that they could at least make sure that the one they do produce are faultless.
I'm also a bit worried about the quality of the sensors, I have no evidence for this at all but I do know that when some factories are pressed for products they can sometimes allow the quality to drop a bit. In this case it could be something as in allowing more faulty pixels in a sensor than they would normally allow.

Again, I have nothing that even suggests that this is happening. It's only a thought.
08-03-2016, 01:46 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by tomO2013 Quote
Note that this time in the video the camera resets itself immediately after pressing live view on/off. On more than one occasion it has taken a number of attempts.
Well yours is the third that I've heard of now. Mine has been going since early May and is still going and no sign of stopping yet. Whenever it has happened I've just done as you described and pressed the LV button to get it back to normal. I too have had to do this a couple of times to get it back to normal though this is the exception. If you leave it like that it will actually close the shutter after a while anyway. Mine's not shown any signs of stopping and yours probably won't either, but then mine doesn't have to do wedding duties.

I will be out with mine again tomorrow night and then have superbike racing on the weekend so it's not going anywhere yet. There's also an airshow soon so probably September before I send mine in, but then there's a couple of events I want it for then too. So maybe October as I don't want it in for the fix over Christmas etc.

Hopefully you'll hear back soon, though I expect with stuff like this you have to follow up with them or you might not get a response at all. Please keep us posted on the outcome as it seems that with three with the same condition it's likely to be the same issue and the potential for more out there can't be discounted.

Tas
08-03-2016, 02:47 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
I'm also a bit worried about the quality of the sensors,
Which sensors? The AF sensor? The 86k metering sensor? The 36MP imaging sensor?

Which lenses too? The lenses in the AF assembly? The lenses in front of the metering sensor? The user lenses on the front of the camera?

Let's not forget issues of lens firmware too ... eg some Sigma lenses seem erratic on any camera. So in some cases, one simply can't blame the camera AF, when the problem is poor reverse engineering by 3rd party lens makers.

In a DSLR, there are many, many points where design imprecision, manufacturing tolerances and simple manufacturing or assembly defects can contribute to the AF equation in a DSLR. It's a complex problem for any DSLR camera maker, even mirrorless to some degree.
08-03-2016, 03:59 AM   #15
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The 36 Mp sensor, that is the one in short supply as far as I know. I did not mention anything about lenses.
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