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08-20-2016, 03:51 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@mee Good analysis. The question is, "Why might DPR be prejudiced against Pentax?"
The real question is - why do people cook up conspiracy theories about DPR being biased instead of accepting their results as representing what other review sources and many users have found too.

QuoteQuote:
[*]Amazon Corporate policy - Amazon wants volume break points on favored gear and Pentax is real competition[*]Pentax sells to Amazon on less favorable terms than favored brands (a more generalized version of above) - see snark-laden Kindle reference)
DPR has editorial independence. Accusing media of bias because their content goes against your personal opinion is a pretty typical behaviour of people who identify strongly with a brand/political cause/country/organisation etc.

QuoteQuote:
All of which is a shame, really. I had previously thought Chris M. Williams (new, and a former microbiologist) , Richard Butler and Dan Bracaglia (both veteran DPR Administrators and Editors) were at least professional, unbiased writers.
They probably still are, they are just going against your opinion. How dare they find a flaw with your favourite camera?! Totally unacceptable ...

08-20-2016, 04:24 AM   #137
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I think that there are two things going on here.

1) They are comparing flagship models between brands. This is a bit unfair. Do Nikon or Canon have flagship full frame models that cost $1,800 US? And if they do are the features the same.

2) Pentax continuous auto focus is not as good as Nikon of Canon. But I do think that you can get a pretty good keeper rate if you work with the system. I do think that the Pentax continuous autofocus system requires more technique than Nikon or Canon. Both of these systems do just a little bit more for the photographer in this regard.

As Rondec say above, the K1 is not a sports/action camera. The sensor itself limits it's burst rate. Electronic image capture has made a lot of sports photographers pretty lazy. They point and shoot and spray and pray. Sheer volume just about guarantees a usable image. There is a reason that magazines like Sports Illustrated fired their staff photographers. They are not needed anymore. The skill that these people possessed and their ability to capture "the image" using manual focus lenses and manual film advance was incredible. Auto film winders helped, but also consumed film at a faster rate so there was a trade off.
08-20-2016, 05:36 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
The real question is - why do people cook up conspiracy theories about DPR being biased instead of accepting their results as representing what other review sources and many users have found too.



DPR has editorial independence. Accusing media of bias because their content goes against your personal opinion is a pretty typical behaviour of people who identify strongly with a brand/political cause/country/organisation etc.



They probably still are, they are just going against your opinion. How dare they find a flaw with your favourite camera?! Totally unacceptable ...
I just haven't found the dismal results that these folks have, although I haven't been shooting bicycles coming right towards me. I have taken plenty of tracking photos of my kids and my wife takes wedding photos in low light settings using AF-C and the images are fine.

Biggest thing is just to make sure folks understand that this camera can keep up with things for which it is intended.

It is clearly not intended for sports and if you choose to use it for that, you may struggle with its limitations -- not just AF-C, but also buffer size and frame rates.
08-20-2016, 05:58 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
The real question is - why do people cook up conspiracy theories about DPR being biased instead of accepting their results as representing what other review sources and many users have found too.

DPR has editorial independence. Accusing media of bias because their content goes against your personal opinion is a pretty typical behaviour of people who identify strongly with a brand/political cause/country/organisation etc.

They probably still are, they are just going against your opinion. How dare they find a flaw with your favourite camera?! Totally unacceptable ...
DPReview being biased doesn't necessarily imply conspiracies; that's a strawman from those who want us to accept everything some reviewer said, no question asked.
Another strawman - also visible above - is to claim that if you doubt some reviewer's words, then you must believe your camera's perfect and can't be improved in any way. Actually both are ad hominem tactics, attacking the person to defend the review's bias.

Surprisingly, reviewers can get things wrong. DPReview, for example, had to redo their Pixel Shift tests after the first attempts were awful (they also replaced the lens, which apparently was defective). Of course, "well intended" people were carefully looking at the corners of the image - looking for the softest area they could find - to evaluate the maximum sensor's sharpness
Then there was the review full of snarky comments (now it's significantly milder, thanks to people complaining). And if Pentaxians have a different shooting experience, they're told by an insistent reviewer that airplanes are at infinity and don't actually move much from there. Oh yeah, I have full confidence in what they say, no need to think by myself

08-20-2016, 05:58 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is clearly not intended for sports and if you choose to use it for that, you may struggle with its limitations -- not just AF-C, but also buffer size and frame rates.
True, and I haven't come across any reviews focusing on that the K-1 cannot do fast paced action. All the reviews I have found have simply looked at all the features and aspects (build, image quality, AF etc.) and then presented a more or less balanced conclusion. All the people accusing DPR or fstoppers of bias fail to see all the other hugely positive comments the reviewers made on the exceptional build quality and ergonomics, the image quality etc.
08-20-2016, 05:59 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
The sensor itself limits it's burst rate.
I think this is the most overlooked point in all the comparisons - it has knock-on implications: with a slower frame rate there is more movement between consecutive frames in a tracking situation, therefore bigger focus adjustments. Again, the K-1 is (I'm sure, though I've never used either) not as good in the AF tracking department as the D810, but less 'not as good as' than compared to, say. the D500 - and that's not just because the D500 is newer, it's also because it has a smaller sensor with fewer MP.
08-20-2016, 06:01 AM - 1 Like   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
DPReview being biased doesn't necessarily imply conspiracies; that's a strawman from those who want us to accept everything some reviewer said, no question asked.

[...]

And if Pentaxians have a different shooting experience ...
Except many Pentaxians actually have the exact same experiences, and if they voice them they are simply shouted down by the fanboys, and particularly accused of simply lacking skills and not knowing how to use their camera.
08-20-2016, 06:15 AM   #143
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That's mostly a matter of perspective - I don't remember any Pentaxian confirming they're bringing a Kindle along every time they're attempting low light focusing (Pentaxians must be the most literate camera users ever!)

08-20-2016, 06:16 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
The real question is - why do people cook up conspiracy theories about DPR being biased instead of accepting their results as representing what other review sources and many users have found too.
Because they don't test objectively and consistently across similar cameras so that users can make a fair judgement about which best suits their needs.Their test was clearly unequal compared to tests of similar cameras, as was amply described in comments. Since other review sources that came to the same conclusions did not use such inconsistent testing, I infer DPR is biased.
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
DPR has editorial independence. Accusing media of bias because their content goes against your personal opinion is a pretty typical behaviour of people who identify strongly with a brand/political cause/country/organisation etc.
If you have read any of my responses here or there you should know I agree with their conclusions, and openly said so. What I disagree with is their choice of charged and pejorative words, sarcastic review titles, unnecessarily snarky comments rather than simple declarations (bring a - Amazon - Kindle to read, which is not editorial independence), improper declarations (not suitable for photographing small active children) and argumentative commentary. Since other review sources who came to the same conclusions don't use such hyperbolic language, I infer DPR is biased.
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
They probably still are, they are just going against your opinion. How dare they find a flaw with your favourite camera?! Totally unacceptable ...
Uhmm, no, not at all. I see the same Tracking AF.C behavior in my own K-1. It's old news, really - we've been talking about Tracking AF.C for years. I just compensate by moving the camera slightly to keep the AF area on my subject.

As I wrote, if DPR is not biased then their editorial controls are embarrassingly weak. To leave such clear inferences of prejudice in a review from a site that claims to be independent demonstrates lack of managerial oversight, or some other dependent reason to allow the appearance of conflict of interest to be published. Using Occam's Razor, however, I infer DPR is biased.

Of course, while DPR has repeatedly edited their review (without attribution) to remove the most egregious offenses and I haven't, it is perfectly understandable you might think my comments are Fanboyish. I suggest their unattributed edits are revealing - someone more senior at DPR looked at the review and changed it, without attribution. They got caught. You have been ill-served. I continue to infer, therefore, DPR is biased.

You're pretty much alone in your defense of DPR in this case.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-20-2016 at 08:54 AM.
08-20-2016, 07:30 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
True, and I haven't come across any reviews focusing on that the K-1 cannot do fast paced action. All the reviews I have found have simply looked at all the features and aspects (build, image quality, AF etc.) and then presented a more or less balanced conclusion. All the people accusing DPR or fstoppers of bias fail to see all the other hugely positive comments the reviewers made on the exceptional build quality and ergonomics, the image quality etc.
If you read the initial DP Review review (since redacted), you would have read a number of comments, among them stating that it was helpful if you had a kindle along so that you get some reading done during the time it took the K-1 to focus.

Probably the biggest issue I have with the whole thing is that AF-C performance is not equivalent to auto focus performance as a whole. Many of us seldom use AF-C and Pentax cameras are quite good at AF-S focus, even if they lag a bit in AF-C mode. The other thing is that I have found tracking auto focus to be significantly better than what DP-Review found. I am not super-skilled in action photography, but I have a hit rate of sixty or sixty-five percent when my kids are riding bikes towards me. Granted, they aren't super-speedy, but the camera definitely does some effort at tracking and can be used for this (there are folks who do a lot better than I do here on the forum).

The DP Review review as it now stands is pretty fair. As initially constructed, it was not and really read like someone trying to get a lot of not-so-subtle digs into Pentax. This review is a good one in that respect and is honest about strengths and limitations of the Pentax system.
08-20-2016, 08:05 AM   #146
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Rondec, I have another problem with the DPReview's assessment - as a Pentax user, I'm interested in what the K-1 can do, yet they put a lot of effort to find out where it fails. For Pete's sake, I'm not trying to make my camera fail, I want to take pictures with it!
So while their approach - if applied consistently, which it isn't - might be useful to differentiate between products and give ratings and such, it's missing crucial information. OK, we can't track a reviewer swerving on a bike*. But, what should we do, then? If the camera won't detect and track the subject by itself, what can we do to help it?

* I have valid, yet unanswered questions regarding that test.
08-21-2016, 06:27 AM - 1 Like   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And if Pentaxians have a different shooting experience, they're told by an insistent reviewer that airplanes are at infinity and don't actually move much from there.
That was directed at me. And also that motorsports are at infinity!

(My analysis is that those DPReview people simply believed that because they didn't shoot that sort of action themselves. I think they steered their tests towards what other camera makers provide, rather than towards the real world experiences of people who shoot such action photography a lot. It will be interesting to see whether they start to judge other makers' cameras by how well they implement pixel-shift!)

---------- Post added 21st Aug 2016 at 02:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Except many Pentaxians actually have the exact same experiences, and if they voice them they are simply shouted down by the fanboys, and particularly accused of simply lacking skills and not knowing how to use their camera.
Where are examples of this "shouting down"?

What actually happens is that people like me upload sharply-auto-focused photos of planes in flight, racing bikes, racing cars, etc. We support what we say with actual photos taken with the K-1, not just words.

And the main people who are showing these photos have typically also posted our own criticisms of the K-1! We certainly don't claim that the K-1 is perfect in this respect, nor that it is the camera you would use if you were trying to make a living with that sort of photography.

What is wrong with saying that it is important with the K-1 to know how to use the camera, and to have the right skills, to do this sort of photography? I accept that it may be easier to do without these when using other makers' cameras.

One thing we object to are claims that hint that the K-1 can't be used for this sort of photography! There are too many people who appear willing to pigeon-hole the K-1 as being for landscapes and architecture, or whatever. No - it is a general purpose camera, and probably isn't even the best camera for those subjects either!
08-21-2016, 07:34 AM   #148
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Pretty much all of the reviews of Pentax cameras, except for Mike Tomkins over at Image Resource, are written by people who shoot brands other than Pentax. If you are coming over from Nikon or Canon the first thing you will notice is the AF is just not as snappy. There seems to be some latency in the Ricoh AF system.

Let's say you are looking at the K-1 with the D-FA* 70-200mm as a viable alternative to the Nikon D810 with the 70-200mm F/2.8. The first thing you will notice is the AF of the Nikon is just quicker. Does that mean the AF of the K-1 is bad? No, but comparisons are always relative. The K-1 with the D-FA* 70-200mm are superior to the D810 with the 70-200mm F/2.8 in some ways, but AF is not one of them. Some of the brand apologists just can't handle that.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k1/pentax-k1-field-test.htm
08-21-2016, 08:39 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pretty much all of the reviews of Pentax cameras, except for Mike Tomkins over at Image Resource, are written by people who shoot brands other than Pentax. If you are coming over from Nikon or Canon the first thing you will notice is the AF is just not as snappy. There seems to be some latency in the Ricoh AF system.

Let's say you are looking at the K-1 with the D-FA* 70-200mm as a viable alternative to the Nikon D810 with the 70-200mm F/2.8. The first thing you will notice is the AF of the Nikon is just quicker. Does that mean the AF of the K-1 is bad? No, but comparisons are always relative. The K-1 with the D-FA* 70-200mm are superior to the D810 with the 70-200mm F/2.8 in some ways, but AF is not one of them. Some of the brand apologists just can't handle that.

Pentax K-1 Review - Field Test
The operative word is Some.

If you are coming over to a Cadillac 'V' Series sedan from the comparable BMW 'M' Series, the Cadillac just isn't quite as quick. Every car mag agrees, but none seems to call out the Caddy as Poor: Not Suitable For Sport Driving.

Pentax single AF is fast enough; AF.C is Good.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-21-2016 at 08:46 AM.
08-21-2016, 08:50 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The operative word is Some.

If you are coming over to a Cadillac 'V' Series sedan from the comparable BMW 'M' Series the Cadillace just isn't quite as quick. Every car mag agrees, but none seems to call out the Caddy as unsuited to sport driving.

Pentax single AF is fast enough.
True, but just as with cars, the performance of cameras is relative. Everyone wants to be critical of reviewers for writing a review that is subjective. People who have only been shooting Pentax for the last 10 years will find the K-1 to be a very capable camera relative to what they have been using. Someone shooting the Nikon D750 is going to find the K-1 to be a little slow and will notice the AF lag.

This is important because Ricoh needs to attract users from other systems and the AF is going to be the first thing people notice. Someone who is coming over from a Fuji X-Pro 1 is going to be thrilled with the AF performance. Someone who is shooting with the new Fuji X-T2 is not going to be impressed the K-1 AF. Understanding the reviewers starting point is pretty important in putting the review in context. Something many people here have trouble with.
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