Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-21-2016, 08:57 AM   #151
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,001
What will some reviewers shooting the D810 think - noticeably slower? Tolerably slower? About the same?

How about D500? How about 1Dx?

As I wrote (and you affirmed), reviewers are subject to Centering Bias. Some of them qualify their comparisons; others magnify the differences beyond their importance.

In my personal experience with the 28~105 (and others on this thread), K-1 Tracking AF is not "Poor: Unsuited to shooting fast action (small active children)".


Last edited by monochrome; 08-21-2016 at 09:07 AM.
08-21-2016, 09:12 AM - 1 Like   #152
Pentaxian
FantasticMrFox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,119
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Where are examples of this "shouting down"?
Everywhere, I can't be bothered to go through past threads and find specific posts. They were about the K3/K3 II though.

QuoteQuote:
What actually happens is that people like me upload sharply-auto-focused photos of planes in flight, racing bikes, racing cars, etc. We support what we say with actual photos taken with the K-1, not just words.
Everyone can pick one of two sharp images out of a sequence of mostly out-of-focus shots. Never have I ever seen a full sequence of images of a subject coming towards the camera or moving away from it at moderate to high speed. Everyone posts either a) a couple of sharp shots picked from a sequence, or b) a sequence of a subject that moves mostly laterally rather than on the z-axis.

Because if someone actually posted an honest, full (i.e. every image of the sequence), high speed drive (i.e. set to the highest fps) AF.C sequence of e.g. a jogger coming towards the camera, at least half of the frames would be out of focus. That's a behaviour that has been described in detail and replicated by scores of users and reviewers, and I won't accept assertions to the opposite unless I see a full sequence as described above.

But I am honestly, seriously interested in what I could do better. I have read guides on the Pentax AF.C, experimented with all the options (hold status, single point vs. expanded area etc.) and tried my K3 with various lenses (Pentax screw-drive or Sigma HSM) at different kind of sports (football, rugby, basketball, mountain biking ...), and after all that (and the reports of other users) I am confident that the camera simply cannot do better. So if you can provide me with a sequence of images as described above, and add all the settings so I can replicate it, please go ahead. K3, K3 II, K1, as you please.

QuoteQuote:
And the main people who are showing these photos have typically also posted our own criticisms of the K-1! We certainly don't claim that the K-1 is perfect in this respect, nor that it is the camera you would use if you were trying to make a living with that sort of photography.

What is wrong with saying that it is important with the K-1 to know how to use the camera, and to have the right skills, to do this sort of photography? I accept that it may be easier to do without these when using other makers' cameras.
I agree, no one buys a Pentax for sports and you certainly get more keepers if you have the skills than if you don't. But there are many people here who claim that Pentax cameras can reliably track subjects, and that's simply not true.

QuoteQuote:
One thing we object to are claims that hint that the K-1 can't be used for this sort of photography!
You can use a K1000 with an SMC-M 50 f/1.7 for that sorts of photography, but do you really want to?

Last edited by FantasticMrFox; 08-21-2016 at 09:17 AM.
08-21-2016, 09:47 AM - 1 Like   #153
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,001
@FantasticMrFox You might be correct. K-1 probably can't accurately track Z-axis 30-burst fast action like a sprinting dog with 100% eye-in-focus accuracy. So what? People should buy a D500 or D750 for that, if that's the use case. People who insist K-1 is as good as a D750 for fast action might be wrong. Meh. So what?

But K-1 AF.c is good enough for most uses. My grandchildren aren't too fast for the K-1 and 28~105 to track - maybe not 100% of 30-burst streams, but I never do that. I shoot in threes, as my SI-trained daughter taught me (sorry, couldn't resist).

I'm going to assert I won't have any trouble tracking her running a half-marathon with K-1 because I've done so to my satisfaction with a K-3 / DA55~300 (I know, show me the photos - that's why I wrote 'assert' )

Alas, my grandchildren's parents don't want their own and especially their children's images posted on the Internet. Such are the times.

OTOH, I don't accept the claims that K-1 can't track reasonable subjects in reasonable conditions reasonably well compared to reasonably similar cameras. Where are the examples to prove the K-1 isn't a reasonably decent Tracking AF 36Mp FF camera?

Last edited by monochrome; 08-21-2016 at 09:58 AM.
08-21-2016, 10:00 AM   #154
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,841
Rishi, is that you?* That's the same type of criticism you're using, as his "airplanes are at infinity" - just excuses to ignore positive experiences contrary to his prejudiced views.

* J/K. Rishi would post under his own name.

08-21-2016, 10:01 AM   #155
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,001
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Rishi, is that you? That's the same type of criticism you're using, as his "airplanes are at infinity".
Different guy. He's OK. We disagree sometimes. It's cool.
08-21-2016, 10:05 AM - 1 Like   #156
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,841
I'm not seriously trying to suggest that he is actually Rishi - I edited the post for clarity. But, it's the same tactic: nothing is good enough other than his bicycle test and others that confirm his findings; because sequences aren't complete, aren't sharp enough, subjects are at infinity and they don't follow precisely the pattern of a DPR editor swerving on a bike...

I understand some people are less than happy with Pentax' AF-C capabilities; but let's not degenerate into seeing fanboys everywhere and claim that others' are not honest when posting their images/experience.

P.S. I'm sure Rishi is also OK, most of the time. One of the serious disadvantages of an internet forum is that, after a disagreement, we can't met at a pub and laugh it off, with some beer to help.

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-21-2016 at 10:17 AM.
08-21-2016, 11:05 AM   #157
Veteran Member
Barry Pearson's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Stockport
Posts: 870
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Everyone can pick one of two sharp images out of a sequence of mostly out-of-focus shots. Never have I ever seen a full sequence of images of a subject coming towards the camera or moving away from it at moderate to high speed. Everyone posts either a) a couple of sharp shots picked from a sequence, or b) a sequence of a subject that moves mostly laterally rather than on the z-axis.

Because if someone actually posted an honest, full (i.e. every image of the sequence), high speed drive (i.e. set to the highest fps) AF.C sequence of e.g. a jogger coming towards the camera, at least half of the frames would be out of focus. That's a behaviour that has been described in detail and replicated by scores of users and reviewers, and I won't accept assertions to the opposite unless I see a full sequence as described above.
If you haven't seen it, perhaps that is because you don't study what is uploaded at DPReview.

I'm not near my main PC, so I can't show you much at the moment. And since if I get lots of good photos in a burst, I delete most of them quickly because I only need one or two, I may not still have complete bursts of that type. (Who needs more?) But I may still have some complete bursts that I can link to, when I get to my main PC.

Please be clear: your statements above do not reflect the reality of people like myself. As you say: "Never have I [you] ever seen ....". It doesn't mean no one else has seen them.
08-21-2016, 01:37 PM   #158
Pentaxian
FantasticMrFox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,119
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@FantasticMrFox You might be correct. K-1 probably can't accurately track Z-axis 30-burst fast action like a sprinting dog with 100% eye-in-focus accuracy. So what? People should buy a D500 or D750 for that, if that's the use case. People who insist K-1 is as good as a D750 for fast action might be wrong. Meh. So what?
Nope, I'm saying the K3 (and probably the K-1, too) cannot track someone jogging at a moderate speed at 5 fps with acceptable sharpness. Which is something that I, as someone who is not a sports photographer, want my camera to be able to do once in a while, without having to buy a D500 or 1Dx II.

QuoteQuote:
Where are the examples to prove the K-1 isn't a reasonably decent Tracking AF 36Mp FF camera?
I don't have a K-1, but I'll try to get material to demonstrate the K3 cannot do it some time.

08-21-2016, 01:40 PM   #159
Pentaxian
FantasticMrFox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,119
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Please be clear: your statements above do not reflect the reality of people like myself. As you say: "Never have I [you] ever seen ....". It doesn't mean no one else has seen them.
It means that in the lengthy discussions I've had on this forum on the AF.C of the K3 none of the people who always claimed the K3 can do what I said it cannot do ever supplied a full sequence as I described.
08-21-2016, 01:54 PM   #160
Loyal Site Supporter
redpit's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Athens
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 658
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/327252-fstoppers-reviews-p...ml#post3737949

I have already said my opinion on the K-1 AF. In a previous post you can see above I attached a comparative video where a pro photographer is quite impressed by the K-3II AF tracking performance. Of course this is relevant, he may well had read the reviews which claim Pentax has nearly manual focus only systems...
08-21-2016, 02:04 PM   #161
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Indiana
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,435
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Nope, I'm saying the K3 (and probably the K-1, too) cannot track someone jogging at a moderate speed at 5 fps with acceptable sharpness. Which is something that I, as someone who is not a sports photographer, want my camera to be able to do once in a while, without having to buy a D500 or 1Dx II.



I don't have a K-1, but I'll try to get material to demonstrate the K3 cannot do it some time.
A K-1 can't shoot 5 fps, so you are definitely right about that.

I really don't see folks putting the K-1 forward as this awesome tracking/sports camera. Biz-Engineer has posted several series of duck in flight images where the K-1 had no trouble tracking the duck. Now, of course, the duck wasn't coming directly at the camera, but it certainly did indicate that the camera is doing some tracking.

At the same time, reviewers do say negative things about the auto focus capability of the K-1 and people, like yourself, pick it up and generalize it. It is one thing to say AF-C has trouble handling a fast moving object travelling directly at the camera and another to say AF-C is useless in most situations and AF-S is hesitant and struggles a lot. The first statement is correct. The second two are not, in my experience (but are stated as cons in the DP Review review).

I hope you get a chance to try a K-1 for yourself someday and see that the auto focus isn't as awful as some make it out to be.
08-21-2016, 02:53 PM - 1 Like   #162
Veteran Member
Barry Pearson's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Stockport
Posts: 870
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Because if someone actually posted an honest, full (i.e. every image of the sequence), high speed drive (i.e. set to the highest fps) AF.C sequence of e.g. a jogger coming towards the camera, at least half of the frames would be out of focus. That's a behaviour that has been described in detail and replicated by scores of users and reviewers, and I won't accept assertions to the opposite unless I see a full sequence as described above.
I no longer shoot long bursts. After all, I typically only want one photo at the most from the burst, and it will probably come from the last 3 or 4. So I just shoot the last 3 or 4! The K-1 plus the D FA 70-200mm f/2.8 can lock onto a plane or racing car or racing bike quickly, so this avoids waste. I've typically deleted most of any earlier longer bursts I've taken.

But I've found a couple of complete bursts (in FF Mode) that I took about 3 months ago, (while I was still relatively inexperienced with the K-1), and uploaded to DPReview:

Racing car at Oulton Park (1)

Racing car at Oulton Park (2)

Please remember: I'm neither a shareholder nor an employee of Ricoh. It isn't my problem what you believe!
08-21-2016, 03:12 PM   #163
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,001
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Nope, I'm saying the K3 (and probably the K-1, too) cannot track someone jogging at a moderate speed at 5 fps with acceptable sharpness. Which is something that I, as someone who is not a sports photographer, want my camera to be able to do once in a while, without having to buy a D500 or 1Dx.
Do you have a K-3 and a modern, DC lens? Or is this just talk?


Or - do you already know about this slow-speed tracking AF doughnut hole and you already know your specific call out is a weakness?

Last edited by monochrome; 08-21-2016 at 03:45 PM.
08-21-2016, 03:19 PM - 1 Like   #164
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,001
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
I no longer shoot long bursts. After all, I typically only want one photo at the most from the burst, and it will probably come from the last 3 or 4. So I just shoot the last 3 or 4! The K-1 plus the D FA 70-200mm f/2.8 can lock onto a plane or racing car or racing bike quickly, so this avoids waste. I've typically deleted most of any earlier longer bursts I've taken.

But I've found a couple of complete bursts (in FF Mode) that I took about 3 months ago, (while I was still relatively inexperienced with the K-1), and uploaded to DPReview:

Racing car at Oulton Park (1)

Racing car at Oulton Park (2)

Please remember: I'm neither a shareholder nor an employee of Ricoh. It isn't my problem what you believe!
Neither series shows a jogger (moderate speed) coming right at you. Try again.


:brap:
08-21-2016, 03:47 PM   #165
Pentaxian
FantasticMrFox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,119
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Do you have a K-3 and a modern, DC lens? Or is this just talk?
K3 with Pentax screw-drives and a Sigma HSM. But the problem doesn't seem to be the lens AF speed, which is more than fast enough even with the slow HD DA 55-300 WR. The camera simply doesn't focus continuously, rather gets the subject in focus, then lets way too much time elapse until refocusing. Then lens isn't at fault here, it can go from infinity to closest focusing distance way faster than the approaching subject. But it won't if the K3 doesn't tell it to.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
af, af-c, af.c, barry, camera, dslr, examples, focus, fstoppers reviews, full frame, full-frame, images, k-1, k1, lenses, pentax, pentax k-1, rate, reviews the pentax, rider, settings, statement, system, terms
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kai (DigitalRev TV) reviews the K-1 - NSFW Not a Number Pentax K-1 37 07-15-2016 07:59 PM
The Exposure section of the IR K-1 review is out for the K-1. normhead Pentax K-1 9 07-03-2016 10:05 AM
Diglloyd reviews DA 35, DFA 50 and DFA 100 Macro lenses on the K-1 Matchete Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 19 06-09-2016 09:18 AM
Goolwa, Australia Pentax K-1 Launch..... billed as largest K-1 event in the world! noelpolar Pentax K-1 44 05-10-2016 08:22 PM
Any reviews of the K-3ii by photo mags yet? tduell Pentax K-3 12 07-13-2015 02:48 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:43 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top