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08-08-2016, 06:58 AM   #76
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Cartier-Bresson was wrong with his "decisive moment" nonsense; there must be a sequence of at least 10-12 decisive moments

08-08-2016, 07:05 AM   #77
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Well, I think there are definitely situations where having a string of in focus images (from a good tracking engine) will let you choose the best image. If you have ten images, but only 2 are tack sharp because of focus error, then that is not a great thing.

I will say as well, that when I see images that are not focused as well, a lot of times it is due to user error -- inadequate shutter speed, subject outside of the focus area, and so on. If your initial image is in focus and you keep the subject where it should be, then the K-1 does a pretty good job of keeping up. If the initial image is not sharp, odds are that remained of images won't be either.
08-08-2016, 07:06 AM - 2 Likes   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think it's pretty foolish to keep defending Alex Cooke, Dan.
I'm not trying to defend anyone. He can defend himself if he thinks he has to.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If he can't photograph horses like members of the forum, that's his problem as a photographer. If he tries to judge an aspect of an unfamiliar camera by just eleven photos, that's his problem as a reviewer.
If we photograph horses using pre-focus technique, then what is the point in reviewing the AF-C? Give me any DSLR with a manual lens attached and I can shoot all day long pre-focusing, with at least 90% procent images in focus.

I would really like to see all the images taken by the Fstoppers reviewer.

As I said, I agree up to a point with the learning curve of a new camera. But, let's be honest, how many tweaks you have to make in order for a new camera to work properly? It's not like K1 has a complex af system. By the end of the day a proffesional photographer will have enough time to tweak the K1 in order to get the best out of it.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If you want one of the most difficult sequences imaginable, why are you ignoring Biz-engineer's, done even with the older k-3?

Remember, ducks are amongst the fastest birds in the world - one website has five of them in the top ten species. Link: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/319924-can-anyone-k-1-give...ml#post3624814
Who's ignoring his images? All I said is that I do think K1's af-c is not as good as competition. How far behind is it? I don't know, but I don't think all the reviewers have something against Pentax.

I had K-5 II and K-3 II and I read almost everything from this forum and from some other discussions on the web regarding AF-C, in order to improve my keeper rate. And I grabed on a trip a Nikon D7200 and a Canon 7D (first version) and they just worked much better in terms of tracking with cheap Tamron or Sigma lenses. And I needed 5-10 minutes to make them wotk (speaking about the famous learning curve which everyone seems to mention). I still have the opportunity to shot with a K-3 II and it still feels slower than the competition.

Is that important for you to have some kind of confirmation that K1 is on par in terms of tracking capabilities with D810/D750/5Ds/5D Mark III, etc.?

Let's see professional photographers shooting action with their Pentax cameras and then we can debate on the Pentax AF-C.

---------- Post added 08-08-16 at 02:14 PM ----------



---------- Post added 08-08-16 at 02:37 PM ----------

Even the TheCameraStoreTV (which has on Youtube the most positive review on K1) posted before their review this disclaimer. I wonder why?!

And their general conclusion about the K1's af-c is that is still behind the competition. When all the reviewers say the same thing about the Pentax af-c, than it must be true. The problem here (on this forum) is that there are some guys who want to believe that their K1 or K3 are some kind of 1Dx or D5 and they argue with anyone who says the af-c is not at the same level as the competition. I mean, the camera it's better than the competition in so many regards, but for some, it must be better at everything.

[IMG]photo upload[/IMG]

Last edited by Blue; 08-08-2016 at 08:28 AM. Reason: rude comment edited out
08-08-2016, 07:44 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
Just my two bobs worth, but I have a bit of sympathy for that technique.
In my limited experience (BIF), if you can get your first shot in focus, the following shots, using AF-C, are more likely to be in focus, providing you can pan to keep the subject within your set of focus points. Pre-focussing can help with getting that first shot in focus, and it does depends on your AF-C settings

Cheers,
Terry
This. pre-focusing gets the focus system close. And I didn't say I pre-focus every shot, I use a mixture depending on the course design. Pentax AF is certainly NOT the fastest so one uses techniques to help it along. Every camera system has strengths and weaknesses and a photographer gets to know his/her equipment and how to maximize its performance. A Canon user used to its auto focus performance would probably get pretty annoyed at Pentax AF, I can absolutely sympathize with this.

08-08-2016, 08:12 AM - 1 Like   #80
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The Sigma 150-500 is an F/5-6.3 lens. I shoot sports or wildlife (ex. birds in flight) with it. I achieve focus of subject with it utilizing the Pentax AF.C. F2.8 - F4 was not required for me to achieve focus for images I posted. Images I posted show evident focus using the AF.C system. Settings are: "1st Frame Action in AF.C" is set to "Release Priority", "Hold AF Status" is set to "Off" and "AF Point" is set to "Spot". My "Drive Mode" is usually "Single Frame", but "Continuous Shooting" may be used if needed. I may add that "Single Frame" using the settings I mentioned, can be quite uninhibiting. About the wordage pre-focusing, the term in itself is not a reference to the final shot being made, which is what matters. Sometimes I do a focus on a distance which I may be expecting a subject, but I track and use my camera/lens to do the final focusing. I have not always had to resort to that strategy, but a user is free to do it.

My posted sport images are exactly that, using the AF.C feature. By looking at them, I would affirmatively say action sport is being portrayed and that the focus is evident. I reference that wordage as in the proper definition.

Last edited by C_Jones; 08-08-2016 at 07:15 PM.
08-08-2016, 08:52 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
With all due respect, if you want to make a point about the Pentax AF-C, please include a few series of 10-12 images in wich the subject is in focus. And if you want to consolidate your point of view, please try to replicate those images at f2.8 - f4 (no one wants to see the background almost as sharp as the subjects). Have you seen sports images taken at f7.1 and f8?

Also, why everybody keeps saying that the hit rate with Pentax cameras has gone up using the pre-focus tehnique? What does this tehnique has to do with testing the AF-C? Of course you will have sharp images with any camera (even with manual lenses attached) when you pre-focus on something, knowing that the subject is going to pass through the point were you pre-focused, but this tehnique has nothing to do with AF-C.

I don't expect K-1 to have what it needs in order to go out with it and shoot action photography for a living, but I also want to see valid points when everybody's arguing with all reviewers about AF-C. For the moment all I saw in this thread was:
- a few unsharp images posted by CypherOz
- 2 random images posted by C_Jones from a soccer game, taken at f7.1 and f8
- a few images (nice images by the way) taken by carolina_sky using mostly pre-focus tehnique
- a few posts related to learning curve when you change the system (which I agree with, up to a point)

If Pentax K-1 would have been a sports camera, then I would have understood the reaction from Pentax users. But it's not a sports camera, and the AF-C is not on par with competition in this regard. As I said on another topic, I don't think someone will have problems shooting weedings professionally with K1, but that's about it when comes to tracking capabilities of K1.

I know that DPreview rushed their K1 review, at least when comes to AF-C, but I tend to agree with the conclusions from fstoppers review, at least after I saw the reviewer comments from this thread.

.
Dan, I generally agree with what you are saying. In order to review a camera, it is certainly good if the reviewer has a strong background in other camera systems. If not, it's impossible to do a fair "comparative" review. I see you have extensive experience shooting Canon, therefore I can certainly accept what you say about Pentax autofocus vs Canon autofocus.

Last edited by Fenwoodian; 08-08-2016 at 08:59 AM.
08-08-2016, 08:59 AM   #82
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This debate about AF.C reminds me about a couple of reviews of the Zodiak 8B fish eye medium format Soviet lens. Both reviews compared it to the Zeiss 35mm lens and both recommended the Zodiak. Why? Well, Zeiss is so much better in the corners, really, far ahead of the Zodiak. The minor problem was that the Zeiss cost $6000 (if I remember correctly), while the Zodiak was $200. K-1 might not be the best camera in the history of mankind, but in terms of price/quality ratio, like Pentax in general, it is ahead of the game. AF.C is not something that all people use - I don't, for example. Maybe the focus should be on what is important to all people at all times. I certainly wish my non-Pentax lens had weather sealing during that last trip to the beach... I wouldn't have had to take it apart...

Don't mean to say that the AF.C is not an important consideration to those people for who it matters...
08-08-2016, 09:28 AM   #83
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Pentax AF.C wildlife example.

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PENTAX K-3 II  Photo 
08-08-2016, 10:14 AM   #84
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Brilliant shot, C_Jones! Thanks for posting it. Was that shot from a burst of 10-15? I'd be curious to know/see what that burst looked like and how you captured that image? It's these kind of straight-on approaching scenarios that are hard for me.


08-08-2016, 10:26 AM   #85
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I was in "Single Shot" "Drive" mode. No burst mode, but using the settings I mentioned in my last post, my shutter release was not limited.
08-08-2016, 10:27 AM - 2 Likes   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I'm not trying to defend anyone. He can defend himself if he thinks he has to.



If we photograph horses using pre-focus technique, then what is the point in reviewing the AF-C? Give me any DSLR with a manual lens attached and I can shoot all day long pre-focusing, with at least 90% procent images in focus.

I would really like to see all the images taken by the Fstoppers reviewer.

As I said, I agree up to a point with the learning curve of a new camera. But, let's be honest, how many tweaks you have to make in order for a new camera to work properly? It's not like K1 has a complex af system. By the end of the day a proffesional photographer will have enough time to tweak the K1 in order to get the best out of it.



Who's ignoring his images? All I said is that I do think K1's af-c is not as good as competition. How far behind is it? I don't know, but I don't think all the reviewers have something against Pentax.

I had K-5 II and K-3 II and I read almost everything from this forum and from some other discussions on the web regarding AF-C, in order to improve my keeper rate. And I grabed on a trip a Nikon D7200 and a Canon 7D (first version) and they just worked much better in terms of tracking with cheap Tamron or Sigma lenses. And I needed 5-10 minutes to make them wotk (speaking about the famous learning curve which everyone seems to mention). I still have the opportunity to shot with a K-3 II and it still feels slower than the competition.

Is that important for you to have some kind of confirmation that K1 is on par in terms of tracking capabilities with D810/D750/5Ds/5D Mark III, etc.?

Let's see professional photographers shooting action with their Pentax cameras and then we can debate on the Pentax AF-C.

---------- Post added 08-08-16 at 02:14 PM ----------



---------- Post added 08-08-16 at 02:37 PM ----------

Even the TheCameraStoreTV (which has on Youtube the most positive review on K1) posted before their review this disclaimer. I wonder why?!

And their general conclusion about the K1's af-c is that is still behind the competition. When all the reviewers say the same thing about the Pentax af-c, than it must be true. The problem here (on this forum) is that there are some guys who want to believe that their K1 or K3 are some kind of 1Dx or D5 and they argue with anyone who says the af-c is not at the same level as the competition. I mean, the camera it's better than the competition in so many regards, but for some, it must be better at everything.

[/URL]photo upload[/IMG]
I don't use AF.c and haven't since I was shooting my son playing college lacrosse (with a K10D and DA55~300 - by no measure an action kit). I had a good keeper rate then, but I was shooting in sunlight at f/8 and higher - which was just fine with me.

I have no objection to the conclusions of these reviewers. I suspect Pentax tracking autofocus remains behind the basic capabilities of the best Canon and Nikon action cameras.

I object to language that disparages the entire K-1 AF system, such as DPR's Poor rating (not suitable for photographing active children); dismissive headlines; examples given without listing camera setting (lack of transparency is worse than actual conspiracy); and comparing the K-1 to cameras that are optimized for action in the AF section while comparing it to cameras optimized for studio/ wedding in the other sections, and choosing a comparison camera on price rather than features.

Compare it to one camera, say a D810. Then clearly state your opinion, in dispassionate terms, for what uses the camera is best suited, competent but not exceptional, and I'll-suited. If done that way the relative merit of tracking autofocus (and the entire package) will be more evident.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-08-2016 at 10:33 AM.
08-08-2016, 10:48 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I don't use AF.c and haven't since I was shooting my son playing college lacrosse (with a K10D and DA55~300 - by no measure an action kit). I had a good keeper rate then, but I was shooting in sunlight at f/8 and higher - which was just fine with me.

I have no objection to the conclusions of these reviewers. I suspect Pentax tracking autofocus remains behind the basic capabilities of the best Canon and Nikon action cameras.

I object to language that disparages the entire K-1 AF system, such as DPR's Poor rating (not suitable for photographing active children); dismissive headlines; examples given without listing camera setting (lack of transparency is worse than actual conspiracy); and comparing the K-1 to cameras that are optimized for action in the AF section while comparing it to cameras optimized for studio/ wedding in the other sections, and choosing a comparison camera on price rather than features.

Compare it to one camera, say a D810. Then clearly state your opinion, in dispassionate terms, for what uses the camera is best suited, competent but not exceptional, and I'll-suited. If done that way the relative merit of tracking autofocus (and the entire package) will be more evident.
Well, due to my new passion (wildlife photography) I do need af-c. I tend to look for reviews on Pentax cameras because unfortunately I can't rent Pentax cameras or lenses here, in Romania.

So, if 4-5 known reviewers say that they have a keeper rate between 18% and 40% when af-c is being used, then I think a Pentaxian with some experience in shooting with Pentax cameras can improve the keeper rate up to 55-65-75%.

That being said, I will say this one more time, Pentax K1 is not a sport camera. You can take some action photography with it, but up to a point.
08-08-2016, 11:29 AM - 1 Like   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Well, due to my new passion (wildlife photography) I do need af-c. I tend to look for reviews on Pentax cameras because unfortunately I can't rent Pentax cameras or lenses here, in Romania.

So, if 4-5 known reviewers say that they have a keeper rate between 18% and 40% when af-c is being used, then I think a Pentaxian with some experience in shooting with Pentax cameras can improve the keeper rate up to 55-65-75%.

That being said, I will say this one more time, Pentax K1 is not a sport camera. You can take some action photography with it, but up to a point.
You do understand that I agree with you, right?

I think to a degree some reviewers intentionally bait the Pentax community, and a few would be better understood if they were more transparent.
08-10-2016, 10:21 PM   #89
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Some more superb action shots from one of our members:


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/12-post-your-photos/327590-sports-vi-puja...ya-2016-a.html
08-10-2016, 11:29 PM   #90
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I realize you are not Canadian, Dan, and maybe that is the reason you did not understand the Camera Store was just poking good natured fun at Pentax users. Not a problem.
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