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08-11-2016, 12:46 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
I realize you are not Canadian, Dan, and maybe that is the reason you did not understand the Camera Store was just poking good natured fun at Pentax users. Not a problem.
Maybe I will have the opportunity to shoot with K1 and see for myself how af-c works. I held the camera for a few minutes in my hands, but I didn't had the chance to put it to work.

I'm not worried that the af is not good enough for weedings or for some moderate action photography because I had K-3 II and that camera was decent regarding tracking capabilities.

I only look at online reviews because I want to see what are the reviewers negative points in order for me to look closer to those points when I rent a camera to test it myself. I never buy a camera based on specs or based only on online reviews. I have different needs and expectations than the reviewers so for me it is important to test a camera.

I simply do not agree with the pre-focusing tehnique when someone tests the af-c. While the pre-focusing technique can be used succesfully in shooting action, it has nothing to do with tracking. It's about anticipation and we all know that some scenarious can not be anticipated.

I have all due respect for the ones that uses pre-focusing technique and other techniques in order to improve their keeper rate, but we are all different and we use different techniques in order to get the best images from our cameras.

That being said, I would realy love to see:
1. some opinions regarding the K1's af-s (and af-c) from Pentax professionals photographers who shoots all day long under a contract pressure
2. some reviews for K1 from Pentax ambassadors, including some quality images in their reviews (Ricoh seems to not care about this aspect)
3. Ricoh improving the K1's manual with some usefull informations regarding the af-c customisation


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-11-2016 at 03:56 AM.
08-11-2016, 01:00 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I simply do not agree with the pre-focusing tehnique when someone tests the af-c.

You keep pointing to that example - I don't understand why, unless you've closed your mind, Dan.


Check out the rally cars in my post above - clearly that forum member is panning.


You say you want to do wildlife photography in your country? Check out these photos posted just a few minutes ago ... by a South African user, @vollerp.


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/314413-post-your-k-1-pictu...ml#post3737288


Why not look at the whole Birds in Flight thread? They're not being pre-focused.


Either you listen to bloggers and Internet experts or fellow photographers. The choice is up to you.

Last edited by clackers; 08-11-2016 at 03:35 AM.
08-11-2016, 03:37 AM - 1 Like   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
You keep pointing to that example - I don't understand why, unless you've closed your mind, Dan.
I keep posting this example because I often see on different topics the pre-focus technique being brought into discussions each time someone wants to find out how reliable is the af-c. I understand the guys who are used to shoot back in the film days, but we are in 2016, we have modern and complex af and we want to use it.


QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Check out the rally cars in my post above - clearly that forum member is panning.


You say you want to do wildlife photography in your country? Check out these photos posted just a few minutes ago ... by a South African user, @vollerp.


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/314413-post-your-k-1-pictu...ml#post3737288


Why not look at the whole Birds in Flight thread? They can't be pre-focused.


Either you listen to bloggers and Internet experts or fellow photographers. The choice is up to you.
While I see good images on the dedicated topics, it doesn't mean that the af-c is as good as competition or that the reviewer from Fstoppers or any other reviewer from the internet are completely wrong in their reviews when they speak about the K1's af-c.

Take a look at these example (see below) taken with my 6D. Based on these images I can go and argue with all reviewers on the internet who say that 6D has a basic af and it's useless for action photography. But, knowing that 7D Mark II, 5D Mark III, 5Ds, 1Dx Mark II, 80D have better tracking capabilities, I know that my 6D is not in the same league with the others, when comes to tracking.

While the K1 has the best af system when you compare it to other Pentax cameras, the images posted by forum members doesn't show me that the af is close, as good or better than the competition. It only show me that the af is decent enough to go out and shoot weedings or moderate action, as I said before.

And by competition I do not refer to 1Dx Mark II or to D5. I think the competition to K1 is D810/5Ds. So, if all reviewers from the internet (including Adam and Kenspo from this forum) say the af-c is behind competition, I tend to believe them. How far behind is? I don't know. All I know and I keep saying is that I think (based on the images I've seen and based on the online reviews I keep reading) the K1's af-c is decent.

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Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-11-2016 at 06:38 AM.
08-11-2016, 04:06 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Take a look at those example (see below) taken with my 6D. Based on these images I can go and argue with all reviewers on the internet who say that 6D has a basic af and it's useless for action photography. But, knowing that 7D Mark II, 5D Mark III, 5Ds, 1Dx Mark II, 80D have better tracking capabilities, I know that my 6D is not in the same league as the others when comes to tracking.
Dan, the top concern with Pentax is not this one (afc), it is another much most important concern and you know it since you switch to canon for that reason. The real deal with Pentax is not technical.

08-11-2016, 05:01 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Dan, the top concern with Pentax is not this one (afc), it is another much most important concern and you know it since you switch to canon for that reason. The real deal with Pentax is not technical.
For the main reason this camera was released, I agree with you that the af-c is not the top concern or the selling point of the K1. For me, the lack of smart triggers, the lack of possibilities to rent lenses and the lack of support from our offcial Pentax dealer made me jump in the other boat. I could have lived with the k-3 II's af because the image quality was better than the 7D Mark II which I had in mind first time I wanted to leave Pentax. But when Pentax Romania doesn't do anything to support his customers...it become harder and harder to resist to what Canon had/have to offer.

I keep an close eye on Pentax and this is why I'm very much interested in the point of view of the professional photographers who chosed K1 for their work. While I do apreciate the opinion of the amateur photographers from this forum, no one of them is working under a contract pressure and It's much easier for them to review a camera. But, from a professional photographer's point of view, the entire situation is completly different. This is why I would like to see reviews from professional photographers and from Ricoh ambassadors.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-11-2016 at 05:36 AM.
08-11-2016, 08:13 AM - 2 Likes   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I keep posting this example because I often see on different topics the pre-focus technique being brought into discussions each time someone wants to find out how reliable is the af-c.
I don't know about others but as someone who has mentioned "pre-focusing" in the context of AF-C testing, I would like to clarify why I brought it up.

I felt that while Alex's (empyrean's) review was excellent in many parts it (unintentionally) created an impression that the K-1's AF-C performance is abysmal. The statistics of the shots in focus versus shots attempted were just very bad and a reader could come away from reading this respective part as if it weren't possible to get a better keeper rate with the K-1 at a horse jumping event. When I raised this point, Alex clarified that he did not intend to create the impression that the AF-C performance was useless and confirmed that he would have normally used pre-focusing, had he not been attempting to create all sorts of tests / challenges for the AF-C performance testing. In other words, had his mission not been reviewing but picture taking, he would have come away with a higher keeper rate. Such a higher keep rate, I believe, would be more indicative of what one can achieve with a K-1 at an event like a horse jumping event, and ultimately, that is what a potential customer should be interested in (as opposed to what extreme situations a camera can handle that was never designed to compete with the best sports cameras).

That's all I wanted to argue and I feel the recipient of the argument essentially acknowledged it as a fair comment.

BTW, I understand the K-1's AF-C is not top of the class; I'm not trying argue otherwise. I wouldn't even question anyone who called it "outdated in 2016". But there is a difference between these two statements and, as DPReview did -- in particular in their first version before it was corrected by readers -- a total slamming that suggests that the K-1 focuses at the level of a K100D or worse.

I'd like to explicitly thank Alex for the overall excellent review and for his brave, polite, informative and constructive engagement in this forum.

If only some of the DPReview staff had half the ability to communicate. Some guys at DPReview are really more than OK, but some others are causing damage to the Pentax brand in a, I feel, irresponsible manner. If they claim that a bicycle rider weaving sideways in and out of AF areas, sometimes presenting the main AF area with plain shirt areas while zooming in on the face to show the AF performance is the mother of all AF tests then they should just apply it consistently to every camera. But they don't and we have to take their word that the catastrophic numbers just confirm "performance in the field" (or whatever). As someone else on the forum wrote -- and I had to really laugh hard about it -- while the bicycle AF test does not appear to be suitable for every camera based on how many times it has been used, it surely will make a comeback when they will test the K-70.

Last edited by Class A; 08-11-2016 at 08:18 AM.
08-11-2016, 11:15 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And by competition I do not refer to 1Dx Mark II or to D5. I think the competition to K1 is D810/5Ds. So, if all reviewers from the internet (including Adam and Kenspo from this forum) say the af-c is behind competition, I tend to believe them. How far behind is? I don't know. All I know and I keep saying is that I think (based on the images I've seen and based on the online reviews I keep reading) the K1's af-c is decent.
Firsthand experience, I have had considerably better shooting experience with my K1 than my Nikon D5500 in all environments. Additionally in anything but bright light, I've found the K1 to be superior to my Nikon 1 V2, although the significantly higher framerate of the V2 (15fps with continuous autofocus) does mean that it is perfectly serviceable if willing to spray and pray - remember the Nikon 1 series is lauded for its autofocus performance. My V2 used to be my outdoor sports camera, but I now use the K1.
08-11-2016, 01:12 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by SBeck Quote
Firsthand experience, I have had considerably better shooting experience with my K1 than my Nikon D5500 in all environments. Additionally in anything but bright light, I've found the K1 to be superior to my Nikon 1 V2, although the significantly higher framerate of the V2 (15fps with continuous autofocus) does mean that it is perfectly serviceable if willing to spray and pray - remember the Nikon 1 series is lauded for its autofocus performance. My V2 used to be my outdoor sports camera, but I now use the K1.
Nice of you to quote me, but did you look at what I wrote regarding the K1's competition? You compare an entry level DSLR (Nikon D5500) and an entry level mirrorless (Nikon 1 V2) with the flagship from Pentax. What did you expected, that Nikon wins the "af contest" even with their entry level cameras?

---------- Post added 08-11-16 at 08:21 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
BTW, I understand the K-1's AF-C is not top of the class; I'm not trying argue otherwise. I wouldn't even question anyone who called it "outdated in 2016". But there is a difference between these two statements and, as DPReview did -- in particular in their first version before it was corrected by readers -- a total slamming that suggests that the K-1 focuses at the level of a K100D or worse.

I'd like to explicitly thank Alex for the overall excellent review and for his brave, polite, informative and constructive engagement in this forum.

If only some of the DPReview staff had half the ability to communicate. Some guys at DPReview are really more than OK, but some others are causing damage to the Pentax brand in a, I feel, irresponsible manner. If they claim that a bicycle rider weaving sideways in and out of AF areas, sometimes presenting the main AF area with plain shirt areas while zooming in on the face to show the AF performance is the mother of all AF tests then they should just apply it consistently to every camera. But they don't and we have to take their word that the catastrophic numbers just confirm "performance in the field" (or whatever). As someone else on the forum wrote -- and I had to really laugh hard about it -- while the bicycle AF test does not appear to be suitable for every camera based on how many times it has been used, it surely will make a comeback when they will test the K-70.
I truly believe that DPreview rushed their review, or they put a young and inexperienced photographer to test the K1. Lately DPreview has become a bad joke when comes to reviewing cameras.


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-11-2016 at 01:23 PM.
08-11-2016, 01:38 PM - 1 Like   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Nice of you to quote me, but did you look at what I wrote regarding the K1's competition? You compare an entry level DSLR (Nikon D5500) and an entry level mirrorless (Nikon 1 V2) with the flagship from Pentax. What did you expected, that Nikon wins the "af contest" even with their entry level cameras?

---------- Post added 08-11-16 at 08:21 PM ----------



I truly believe that DPreview rushed their review, or they put a young and inexperienced photographer to test the K1. Lately DPreview has become a bad joke when comes to reviewing cameras.
I guess that's what happens when the best job a Ph.D. can get is stringer for an online camera magazine.
08-11-2016, 11:16 PM - 1 Like   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote

And by competition I do not refer to 1Dx Mark II or to D5. I think the competition to K1 is D810/5Ds. So, if all reviewers from the internet (including Adam and Kenspo from this forum) say the af-c is behind competition
Well, Dan, Kenspo says:

"I do pro-work with concerts and events. K-1 AF is not on par with D5 (who is?), but its fast and very accurate. The ISO is nothing to even think about up to 6400. You can get away with 8000- 12 800 too with some NR in post. But as its also said, you need to have the newest glass..15-30, 24-70 and 70-200 to get 100% out of the new AF system."

and Adam has said:

"Owning both a Pentax K-1 and a Nikon D810 at the moment, I can say that the Pentax AF system does lag behind Nikon's, but it really isn't a huge difference unless you're pushing things to the limit for action shooting .... the widespread claim that "Pentax AF sucks" is far from accurate IMO. "Pentax AF isn't cutting edge" would be more appropriate, because in all fairness, it isn't. But most users will still be happy with it."

Their opinions simply don't match what FStoppers and DPR claimed, nor what experienced Pentaxians know.

More great pics I've seen, birds, planes and boat racing follow. The comments are worth reading, including the guy getting GT racing, at night, with one of the slowest focussing zoom lenses Pentax ever made!

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/173-general-photography/327369-pentax-aut...ml#post3735870

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/242969-sports-images-k-3-a...ml#post3619901

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/327644-k-1-does-24h-spa-ki...ml#post3737764
08-11-2016, 11:48 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, Dan, Kenspo says:

"I do pro-work with concerts and events. K-1 AF is not on par with D5 (who is?), but its fast and very accurate. The ISO is nothing to even think about up to 6400. You can get away with 8000- 12 800 too with some NR in post. But as its also said, you need to have the newest glass..15-30, 24-70 and 70-200 to get 100% out of the new AF system."

and Adam has said:

"Owning both a Pentax K-1 and a Nikon D810 at the moment, I can say that the Pentax AF system does lag behind Nikon's, but it really isn't a huge difference unless you're pushing things to the limit for action shooting .... the widespread claim that "Pentax AF sucks" is far from accurate IMO. "Pentax AF isn't cutting edge" would be more appropriate, because in all fairness, it isn't. But most users will still be happy with it."

Their opinions simply don't match what FStoppers and DPR claimed, nor what experienced Pentaxians know.

More great pics I've seen, birds, planes and boat racing follow. The comments are worth reading, including the guy getting GT racing, at night, with one of the slowest focussing zoom lenses Pentax ever made!

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/173-general-photography/327369-pentax-aut...ml#post3735870

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/242969-sports-images-k-3-a...ml#post3619901

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/327644-k-1-does-24h-spa-ki...ml#post3737764
Since pro photographers are those who can tell more especially when comparing different equipment under the same situation this (well known) video is quite informative too (I started it where some conclusions about Pentax AF in real life scenarios are drawn):

https://youtu.be/F_u1_RfLRTE?t=5m49s
08-11-2016, 11:59 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Nice of you to quote me, but did you look at what I wrote regarding the K1's competition? You compare an entry level DSLR (Nikon D5500) and an entry level mirrorless (Nikon 1 V2) with the flagship from Pentax. What did you expected, that Nikon wins the "af contest" even with their entry level cameras? [COLOR="Silver"]
Obviously you're not familiar with the Nikon 1's autofocus if you consider it 'entry level'
08-12-2016, 01:06 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, Dan, Kenspo says:

"I do pro-work with concerts and events. K-1 AF is not on par with D5 (who is?), but its fast and very accurate. The ISO is nothing to even think about up to 6400. You can get away with 8000- 12 800 too with some NR in post. But as its also said, you need to have the newest glass..15-30, 24-70 and 70-200 to get 100% out of the new AF system."

and Adam has said:

"Owning both a Pentax K-1 and a Nikon D810 at the moment, I can say that the Pentax AF system does lag behind Nikon's, but it really isn't a huge difference unless you're pushing things to the limit for action shooting .... the widespread claim that "Pentax AF sucks" is far from accurate IMO. "Pentax AF isn't cutting edge" would be more appropriate, because in all fairness, it isn't. But most users will still be happy with it."

Their opinions simply don't match what FStoppers and DPR claimed, nor what experienced Pentaxians know.
You took out this part from my quote "I tend to believe them. How far behind is? I don't know. All I know and I keep saying is that I think (based on the images I've seen and based on the online reviews I keep reading) the K1's af-c is decent."

I also said a few times that I'm sure the K-1's af-c is not that bad because I had K-3 II. You keep showing me action images which I've seen (I can show you a ton of similar images taken with my 6D) and I already told you that those images doesn't show me that the af is close, as good or better than the competition. It only show me that the af is decent enough.

And I also said that I really want to see professional photographers opinion about this camera. Why? Because their income comes only from photography and they use a camera differently than an amateur photographer. After all, K-1 is a professional camera and it deserve some professional opinions. Don't you agree? DPReview doesn't count here as a professional reviewer because with that article they have only managed to embarrass themselves.

---------- Post added 08-12-16 at 08:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by SBeck Quote
Obviously you're not familiar with the Nikon 1's autofocus if you consider it 'entry level'
The one that in lower light conditions will switch to contrast-detect and focusing slows down considerably? I know the camera... it has a good af under very good lighting conditions, but that's about it.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-12-2016 at 01:22 AM.
08-12-2016, 02:39 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And I also said that I really want to see professional photographers opinion about this camera. Why? Because their income comes only from photography and they use a camera differently than an amateur photographer. After all, K-1 is a professional camera and it deserve some professional opinions. Don't you agree?
Is the K-1 a professional camera? In what way?

I'm not saying it can't be used by professionals, but was it designed like that? Is it marketed like that? Does it have support like that? What proportion of its users are professionals?

Or was that statement intended as a joke?
08-12-2016, 03:35 AM - 1 Like   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Is the K-1 a professional camera? In what way?
Let's not bring into discussion the desire and concentrate on the needs. Is there any amateur photographer who really needs a camera like K1? I mean, if you're not making money from photography, do you actually need a K1? A K-S 2 or a K-70 is more than enough for an amateur photographer.

QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
I'm not saying it can't be used by professionals, but was it designed like that? Is it marketed like that?
About marketing the camera as a professional one, let me ask you something else. Have you ever seen any camera from Pentax being advertised? Ricoh strategy when comes to marketing is beyond my understanding. I think is the worse photography company regarding marketing, globally speaking.

Yet, they seems to let the impression that the camera can be used professionally by professionals (which I agree with). Impressions | PENTAX K-1 Special site | RICOH IMAGING

QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Does it have support like that? What proportion of its users are professionals?

Or was that statement intended as a joke?
Does Sony or Fuji offer professional support for their customers? Not even close. Yet, there are a few well known professional photographers who use Sony and Fuji cameras. Long live the marketing department in the Sony and Fuji camp.

Shall I continue?

Bottom line, K1 is a professional camera in my opinion and it can handle and even beat the competition in many aspects. The system on the other hand needs another few years in order for professionals to consider Pentax as an alternative to Canon and Nikon.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-12-2016 at 03:51 AM.
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