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08-06-2016, 07:59 AM   #31
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Opinions like this are plentiful on the Internet. You see bloggers regularly giving advice to companies like Apple, or telling them they've failed because a new (or even yet-to-be released) product doesn't do this or that, and most of it is simply click-bait, to get page views for pay by advertisers. Thank heavens the return for that form advertising is falling through the floor.

Nonetheless, if you take the proposition in this particular opinion-piece seriously, for the purposes of discussion, the major assumptions underlying it are that Ricoh isn't planning a challenge to the major players in the professional market segment (as they define it) and that to not have such a camera available now is to miss the boat (for whatever reason – name your favourite: mirrorless, iPhones, video etc).

Both those assumptions may be true, but equally, they may not be true. In the first instance, only Ricoh knows for certain, and they won't be telling until they're good and ready. In the second instance, no one knows with any degree of confidence what will occur in the future, in this segment. In addition, there are only two areas where Pentax APS-C falls behind in the professional market, and those are blazingly-fast AF, and professional support. Specialist optics (like tilt-and-shift) may be a third. It never seems to occur to opinion-writers like these that none of those is essential in many forms of professional work, where the major requirements are reliability and image quality.

As we've just seen, you can buy two APS-C bodies (more, in some instances) for the price of one 35FF body, so back-up is entirely possible on your own resources. And lenses? Well, we've all just been given a lesson in the price of good optics in both systems.

Opinions? Pah! They're like Jimmy Durante jokes ("I've got a million of 'em").

08-06-2016, 08:03 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
What makes you think such a move actually exist? Please ignore Fujifilm's desperate hype - they're a niche player with no other option.

I think on the contrary, FF becomes more popular.
Northrup himself did a vid about this. I'm trying to find it for you. I've known quite a few to dump their FF rigs for crop or even M4/3'rds and they're very happy.

If Pentax can pull it off regards the financials, then great. But TN mentions they have to produce a whole new line up of full frame glass whereas they could have continued crop development. Trying to compete with Canon and Nikon in the FF market is a big jump, maybe.

I'm glad Pentax made the K-1 (although the AF needs work). Got one right here.
08-06-2016, 08:19 AM   #33
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Just reading
'Pentax’s biggest mistake: The Pentax K-1, because while Northrup loves the camera, Pentax now has to develop an entirely new line of full-frame lenses for the new full-frame system."

Little true, don't ?
08-06-2016, 08:54 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by christiandre Quote
Just reading
'Pentax’s biggest mistake: The Pentax K-1, because while Northrup loves the camera, Pentax now has to develop an entirely new line of full-frame lenses for the new full-frame system."

Little true, don't ?
Well, Ricoh/Pentax is actually developing a entirely new line of full-frame lenses... Being the 150-450 and the 70-200 the first ones.



08-06-2016, 08:56 AM - 2 Likes   #35
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Pentax biggest mistake was selling the company to Hoya.
08-06-2016, 08:57 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
Northrup himself did a vid about this. I'm trying to find it for you. I've known quite a few to dump their FF rigs for crop or even M4/3'rds and they're very happy.

If Pentax can pull it off regards the financials, then great. But TN mentions they have to produce a whole new line up of full frame glass whereas they could have continued crop development. Trying to compete with Canon and Nikon in the FF market is a big jump, maybe.

I'm glad Pentax made the K-1 (although the AF needs work). Got one right here.
That doesn't make it a trend. Especially when such cases are marketed heavily
Do you think the reverse isn't true, that people aren't going from smaller formats to FF? Let me give you a hint: according to CIPA, the FF:APS-C lens ratio increased from about 26% to 31%. Sure, FF lenses can be used on APS-C too.

Pentax did pull it off regarding the financials - they're profitable and growing. As for the need to produce a whole new line up of full frame lenses, I have a solution: they can produce a whole new line up of full frame lenses. As simple as that
Because the need to do something is not a reason not to do it. This way of thinking is stupidly lazy, short term and damaging, the kind which would kill the healthiest company rather than bring success. It's a "problem" which will gradually lessens as Ricoh Imaging launches new lenses.
What is really silly is to not realize that going APS pro route they'd also need a new line of lenses: the DA*s just can't cope. And the cherry on top, they would need a camera like no other Pentax, performance-wise. This is the more difficult option.

The thing is, at this point we know that expanding the K-mount into FF territory was a good idea (and one long overdue, I'd add, but I can't blame Ricoh for that). The K-1 is successful. The new lenses are well received. People are talking about Pentax, again.

We also have an example of someone doing it successfully: Sony (FE). And, unlike Pentax, they started from scratch.
On the other side, we have this idea of an APS-C-only system competing for the "pro" arena. Vaguely described, and while we don't have an example of it succeeding we have two failures: 4/3 (which, by the way, had the lenses) and Samsung (with an amazingly fast camera).

---------- Post added 06-08-16 at 07:01 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Pentax biggest mistake was selling the company to Hoya.
For the accuracy sake, Pentax Corporation never sold to Hoya.
It was a hostile takeover, orchestrated by Hoya, SPARX (a major Pentax Corporation shareholder, who wanted to sell badly) and ex-Pentax CEO Fumio Urano. Pentax Corporation tried to resist, but couldn't gather the necessary support.
The timing was impeccable, too - perhaps if done a bit later, when the results of the K10D would be known, things would've been different. But there's no point in crying over spilled milk. Pentax is now free of Hoya.

So I would rephrase that as: "Pentax' biggest mistake was to reach a position where they couldn't resist such a hostile takeover".

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-06-2016 at 09:03 AM.
08-06-2016, 09:46 AM   #37
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IF you rephrase that thing about Pentax have to develop full frame lenses and say, "now Pentax has a market for a whole new line up of full frame lenses, many of which will also be purchased by their existing APS-c customers, " I think he would have had a better understanding of the situation.

HIs error is in thinking developing FF lenses in some way hurts the APS-c market, when in fact it strengthens it.

Every new D FA lens produced will be purchased in part by APS_c shooters. And in some cases like the 150-450 my guess is the vast majority will be purchased by APS-c shooters. The expected influx of FF shooters is what made this lens available to Pentax APS_c shooters. And from what I can tell, the APS-c shooters are loving it. The D FA150-450 make the K3II a better pro system, as does the fDA 70-200. The fact that both formats can share lenses makes it better for both of them.

According to Tony, Pentax shouldn't make a 645z either. After all, it will never compete with Canon and Nikon FFs. IN fact why would any one do anything that would in anyway compete with those Canikon FFs. They are the freaken Borg. Resistance is futile, at least according to Tony.

But then I don't read or watch anything he posts, I know everything I need to know about him by reading the forum.

Last edited by normhead; 08-06-2016 at 10:32 AM.
08-06-2016, 10:15 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That doesn't make it a trend. Especially when such cases are marketed heavily
Do you think the reverse isn't true, that people aren't going from smaller formats to FF? Let me give you a hint: according to CIPA, the FF:APS-C lens ratio increased from about 26% to 31%. Sure, FF lenses can be used on APS-C too.

Pentax did pull it off regarding the financials - they're profitable and growing. As for the need to produce a whole new line up of full frame lenses, I have a solution: they can produce a whole new line up of full frame lenses. As simple as that
Because the need to do something is not a reason not to do it. This way of thinking is stupidly lazy, short term and damaging, the kind which would kill the healthiest company rather than bring success. It's a "problem" which will gradually lessens as Ricoh Imaging launches new lenses.
What is really silly is to not realize that going APS pro route they'd also need a new line of lenses: the DA*s just can't cope. And the cherry on top, they would need a camera like no other Pentax, performance-wise. This is the more difficult option.

The thing is, at this point we know that expanding the K-mount into FF territory was a good idea (and one long overdue, I'd add, but I can't blame Ricoh for that). The K-1 is successful. The new lenses are well received. People are talking about Pentax, again.

We also have an example of someone doing it successfully: Sony (FE). And, unlike Pentax, they started from scratch.
On the other side, we have this idea of an APS-C-only system competing for the "pro" arena. Vaguely described, and while we don't have an example of it succeeding we have two failures: 4/3 (which, by the way, had the lenses) and Samsung (with an amazingly fast camera).

---------- Post added 06-08-16 at 07:01 PM ----------


For the accuracy sake, Pentax Corporation never sold to Hoya.
It was a hostile takeover, orchestrated by Hoya, SPARX (a major Pentax Corporation shareholder, who wanted to sell badly) and ex-Pentax CEO Fumio Urano. Pentax Corporation tried to resist, but couldn't gather the necessary support.
The timing was impeccable, too - perhaps if done a bit later, when the results of the K10D would be known, things would've been different. But there's no point in crying over spilled milk. Pentax is now free of Hoya.

So I would rephrase that as: "Pentax' biggest mistake was to reach a position where they couldn't resist such a hostile takeover".
I didn't say I agreed with him. I just try to see it from other people's point of view.

08-06-2016, 10:46 AM   #39
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If Pentax would just change itself and do things the way I think they should be done . . . . . . .
08-06-2016, 10:47 AM   #40
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@HopelessTogger:
Good. I did the same, and I think he's very much mistaken. Or perhaps he's got exactly the reaction he wanted?

---------- Post added 06-08-16 at 08:48 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If Pentax would just change itself and do things the way I think they should be done . . . . . . .
No, no, it must be my way! The only true way for redemption!
08-06-2016, 10:53 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@HopelessTogger:
Good. I did the same, and I think he's very much mistaken. Or perhaps he's got exactly the reaction he wanted?

---------- Post added 06-08-16 at 08:48 PM ----------


No, no, it must be my way! The only true way for redemption!
My way offers true redemption plus eternal food for your heavenly stay from any heavenly Burger king, of your heavenly choice.

Wait, could I get more takers if I offered free Mackdonalds? I need a marketing department.

Or a politcal strategy team.
What dumb ass thing I have no ability to deliver can I promise to con people into selecting my choice?

Last edited by normhead; 08-06-2016 at 11:03 AM.
08-06-2016, 11:38 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
Northrup himself did a vid about this.
TN understands "equivalence" in principle. That's good.

He doesn't have a good enough understanding though, to know when he is starting to talk nonsense. Please read the article I linked to earlier, and you'll see that an MFT (micro four thirds) system or even APS-C system will never be fully equivalent to an FF system in the real world with manufacturing and pricing constraints.
08-06-2016, 12:00 PM   #43
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As an old guy...I've heard the same message over the years about fuel injection, anti-lock brakes, airbags and a dozen or more innovations that we now consider "standard".

Maybe Tony drives a '54 Ford and is stuck in low gear? And just where did he get the idea that Ricoh has abandoned APS-C?.....That's front page news....yet it's not on the front page anywhere, it's not even on any back page either.

The idea that Ricoh can't walk and chew gum at the same time could only come from someone ...that can't!

The K1 is a wonderful camera, just look around at user response! Priced unreasonably low for a camera with its abilities, and a pure joy for the vast majority of us.

Was it a good idea? Nope..it was a damn good idea!

Regards!
08-06-2016, 12:17 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
TN understands "equivalence" in principle. That's good.

He doesn't have a good enough understanding though, to know when he is starting to talk nonsense. Please read the article I linked to earlier, and you'll see that an MFT (micro four thirds) system or even APS-C system will never be fully equivalent to an FF system in the real world with manufacturing and pricing constraints.
I realise all that, but is the extra weight, size and price of FF worth it over crop, especially for a manufacturer with a small market share having to produce a whole new range of products?

Just trying to understand where TN is coming from.
08-06-2016, 12:29 PM - 2 Likes   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by totsmuyco Quote
I would love to have a pro APSC as I'm not going into Full Frame.
Easily enough done. Just sell an image you took with your APS-C Pentax and, viola! It's pro gear!
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