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08-13-2016, 05:43 PM - 1 Like   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote

If you can show some large scale metric with Pentax has surpassed Fuji, I would love to see it.
I think Pentax will soon surpass Fuji and Canon on Flickr soon...... with all of their owners distracted with Pokemon

---------- Post added 14-08-16 at 10:16 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Maybe I just don't "get it"?

Almost all the K1 shooters I see are beyond happy with the K1 and most are out shooting and enjoying this fine camera. If they were worried about shooting "what's popular" they would have left Pentax long ago. The ones that seem to be most worried about the K1 and Pentax in general are the ones that don't have the K1...which kind of limits their credibility in my way of thinking?

Try one, buy one, or whatever way you can manage to get your hands on one and I think the conversation will change for many. This is the first Pentax upgrade I have made that has brought an instant and gratifying major improvement over previous bodies. It was barely out of the box until I had my first "Wow!!!" moment.

Regards!
Quite true.

08-13-2016, 06:28 PM   #122
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I watched all Tony's reviews about Pentax. He is a pro, but he is not Pentaxian.
I believe that Ricoh is serious about Pentax, and they took the brand to improve. So, K-1 is not a mistake, and it seems more lenses will come.
And I loved the fact that Ricoh asked user's opinion about lenses.
08-13-2016, 09:18 PM - 4 Likes   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm not sure what relevance that has to anything. We could equally say, a number of other folks who for whatever reason seem determined to rub their good fortune in everyone else's face. And then complain because others who aren't in the same position might grumble about it. You only bought a K-1 cause you couldn't afford a 645z.

let the why I don't want a 645z nonsense being. You want one, a K-1 is all you can afford.

SO, I'm going to make ito make it real easy, for the unhumble. If you you don't have a 645z don't bother bragging to me. You don't have what I'm interested in. Saying you bought a K-1 is like a half assed solution. You settled.
A third option for the "everyone wants a K-1 like me" folks. Some people have their sights set higher. A K-1 would be less than half way, all least in price, to what they want.

The same weapon that is used to dis non K-1 owners works just as good from the next model up. I'm surprised you didn't think of that.
That is the biggest line of nonsense I have read in some time. First, in defense of all the K1 owners I see here, I haven't see a one gloat over their ability to purchase a K1. What I have read is honest and sincere enthusiasm for this camera and for what Pentax has given us at a reasonable and affordable price for most. Keeping in mind it is barely more expensive than a new K5 when they came out several years ago. I didn't hear this outrage then, nor did I hear anyone making a case for economic class warfare?

Secondly, many of us here are like Monochrome.....we have spent a lifetime working hard, paying mortgages, sending kids to college and living frugally to make ends meet, while saving what we could for the place in time we are now. With limited expenses and all that cash we saved, we can spend freely, yet not without caution and reason. Some of the younger people here are where we were 40-50 years ago. There is nothing we don't understand about that, and we certainly do not gloat or look at them as underprivileged or inferior and we deeply resent anyone that would make us out to do so.

The 645Z part of your post is absurd. What the hell would I do with a 645Z that I can't do now with most any Pentax in the current lineup? Very little for my needs and use. That I could buy a 645Z as easily as I could buy a loaf of bread 50 years ago is not a sign of arrogance, it is a sign that I was most fortunate to make it this far and still have a few dollars left to play with in my old age. Like many here, I once lived on a very tight budget and longed for things I couldn't afford at the time. We understand, we were there. Few of us were born with that silver spoon, and most that I know that were are not gloaters in any sense of the word.

My personal thoughts are that you might reflect on being a "Kinder, Gentler, Norm" as I have been trying to do lately. Life is about a lot more than camera bodies, lenses, and who has what or doesn't.

Regards
08-13-2016, 11:05 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Flickr and 500px represent a pretty good sample of photography enthusiasts. Enthusiasts are Ricoh's target market. Maybe you can give me another photo-sharing website that is a better, larger representation of photography enthusiasts? We can look at that one as well.

There is no evidence the Flickr as any bias towards or against any brand. Unless you have some you want to share.
Do you realize my point is that a very small selection of photo sharing websites is not statistical sampling of brand ownership? If so, why are you asking me to give another example of what doesn't work?
What you're measuring here is just "brand usage on Flickr and 500px". Not "global camera market share".

And there are questions about their data gathering process and statistics. Something is fishy, for example here:
https://www.flickr.com/cameras/pentax/
the K-3 has 0 items, yet it's #1 and has "3,331 uploads from 189 users yesterday". Does that influence the more general statistics?
Then, the K-3II is under Ricoh and K-1 is missing altogether (Flickr seems to be quite reticent in accepting new Pentax cameras).

Getting back to the concept of statistical data; you are introducing a bias when you're selecting Flickr as "representative" for the entire market (selection bias). Without a properly randomized selection process, there's a very good chance that any conclusion you might draw is invalid.
For example, what if Pentax is most popular (and sold) in Japan, and what if the Japanese don't use Flickr a lot? What if camera (ILC) users don't uniformly use Flickr?

P.S. I hope you note how I'm not claiming that globally, Pentax is ahead of Fujifilm (like I did for Japan, where I had the BCNRanking data). Why is that? Because I don't have data, thus I don't know one way or the other.


Last edited by Kunzite; 08-13-2016 at 11:50 PM.
08-14-2016, 05:49 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Getting back to the concept of statistical data; you are introducing a bias when you're selecting Flickr as "representative" for the entire market (selection bias). Without a properly randomized selection process, there's a very good chance that any conclusion you might draw is invalid.
For example, what if Pentax is most popular (and sold) in Japan, and what if the Japanese don't use Flickr a lot? What if camera (ILC) users don't uniformly use Flickr?
If you have a sample that is a better representation than Flickr and, then post it. What I'm saying is that this is the best data that we have. Is it perfect? No. No data set is perfect. There not reason to believe that the flaws in the date have a greater negative impact on Pentax than Canon or any other brand.

The 3 websites from which the data was collected happen to target the same market segment that Ricoh is going after. Enthusiasts.
08-14-2016, 05:56 AM   #126
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I have no problem with FF, it gives Pentax a respectability in the market which it did not previously have. I don't agree with that attitude because APS-C, especially the cameras offered by Pentax, is very good and fit for 95% (at least) of photography, but in the eyes of the general public that's what it is.

The only problem with FF is that it potentially diverts resources from APS-C, resources which, for one reason or another, have never been as focused as they should have been, even before FF came along. The worry is that APS-C will be side-lined and treated as second-rate, with few or no new lens offerings, no fixing of the problems in existing lens offerings etc etc.
08-14-2016, 06:06 AM - 1 Like   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you have a sample that is a better representation than Flickr and, then post it. What I'm saying is that this is the best data that we have. Is it perfect? No. No data set is perfect. There not reason to believe that the flaws in the date have a greater negative impact on Pentax than Canon or any other brand.
And what I'm saying is: garbage in, garbage out.
08-14-2016, 07:06 AM   #128
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It's hard to let worrying about tomorrow kill my joy of the K1 today.....so I don't!


"Worrying about tomorrow?...that's outrageous!"


Regards!

08-14-2016, 07:13 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And what I'm saying is: garbage in, garbage out.
But you haven't posted anything that proves that the data is garbage.
08-14-2016, 09:17 AM   #130
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It's the data you brought in this discussion, you have to prove that it's relevant to the global market share despite the serious concerns with it that I raised. If only you were similarly rigorous about the data, as you are when you're asking me to offer counter-proof!
Again: you have to support your claim that Fujifilm is so far ahead, that its position is something Ricoh Imaging should covet. Despite, you know, Fujifilm being soundly beat* by Ricoh Imaging on their home market
But this is getting repetitive, perhaps it's time to agree to disagree?

* caveat: BCNRanking's data is not statistical sampling either, but they're getting POS data from a large set of chain and camera stores. Thus, it might include a significant bias.

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-14-2016 at 09:26 AM.
08-14-2016, 09:50 AM - 1 Like   #131
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@Rupert :Sometimes in life we encounter people whom we respect, whose work we admire and aspire to equal (with humble recognition that we likely won't) but we accept that we approach parts of the world from different perspectives; we will disagree on things, and that's OK.

What irks is that we planned and worked for 40 years to be comfortable now - and those who didn't and aren't resent that we did and are.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-14-2016 at 11:29 AM.
08-14-2016, 10:14 AM   #132
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There's a difference between stating concerns and presenting data. You can raise concerns, but that in no way negates the data. Only more data can negate the data. Raising concerns in the overall importance of things is of much less relevance, as, data even with concerns raised, may still end up being true.

Where as data is data and will always be data, no matter what concerns were raised. The concerns are simply a way to refine the presented data, and point out areas of interest for further research but can not be used to negate or alter it, unless the actual data as presented is inaccurate.

So, yes, you may say the data may not be complete, but to say it's garbage. What is actually garbage is concerns raised without reference to conflicting data, that point to further areas of concern. A concern raised without supporting data is no better than speculation, in fact, it is speculation.

Hopefully one will understand the difference.
08-14-2016, 10:48 AM   #133
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"Garbage in, garbage out" is a saying from the computer science domain, and like many similar sayings it was proven true countless times. What it actually means is that the quality of output is determined by the quality of input.

And, I'm afraid, you're incorrect in your reasoning; your claim is basically that any data, even random, even with significant biases, even about something else, is useful and can be "refined" for a stated purpose. This doesn't make sense.
Me raising valid concerns about the 3 sites' popularity indicators posing as market share data is enough to put it in question. You're using an argument from ignorance to shift the burden of proof, but it's up to those bringing the data to prove that it's valid for the stated purpose - if they can.

I'm not demanding absolute rigor - I'm not absurd. But at the very least, do we have something else than popularity indicators, something even resembling market share data?
The only thing I have is the BCNRankings' (which, as I noted, is not perfect either - not even for the region it serves).

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-14-2016 at 11:00 AM.
08-14-2016, 12:06 PM   #134
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Hmm... it seems I've made a mistake - hard to believe, I know. Just a tiny one, not worthy of the title of "BIGGEST". Explorecams is apparently not relying on Flickr&co published stats, but using their own data crawling on posted images, then using Exiftools to find out whatever information.
Which doesn't change much, really.

One (new) thing to wonder: if smartphones are included, how come they're not more dominant? They are in Flickr's statistics... and Flickr, AFAIK, is much larger than 500px (Pixabay is small, other sources were not specifically mentioned).
On 500px, a search by brand reveals slightly more images for Fujifilm than for Pentax + Ricoh, while Apple and Samsung are about half than either.

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-14-2016 at 12:19 PM.
08-14-2016, 12:26 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Pro's need to be able to order from B&H today and have the new lens on their doorstep tomorrow. Or borrow the lens from Canon or Nikon Professional Services, or rent the lens from somewhere. All of this is impossible if the lens isn't even currently in production.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
The vast majority of us are not Pros. I seldom lament that I can't buy a Racing Machine for Daytona at my Chevy or Ford dealer. I can buy a pretty fast car there.....

What lens are you wanting that you can't get?

Regards!
Even on vacation, this can be an issue. I was on a long trip and recently dropped my FA50 f/1.7. The mount bent slightly and I was unable to use it for the remainder of the trip; fortunately, it was on the second to last day so I was able to live without it (FA77 could substitute) and was using it the least among my lenses on the trip. Still, if it had been 2 days into the trip, I would not be able to replace it. I'd have to order an FA50 f/1.4 or DA*55 to replace it, neither of which I'm familiar with. I then handled my FA*24 like it was a child. No way I can replace that on the trip; even replacing it when returning home would be a struggle.

And sure, you can say "Be careful." I am. Accidents happen. People who aren't paying attention can run into you when you're shooting and knock you over, causing your gear to hit the ground. Replacing those rare and semi-rare lenses when you're in the field...not happening. It is a disadvantage.
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