Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-24-2016, 10:41 AM   #31
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,231
Lies and trolling.

QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
I have used ... excellent noise control with long exposures. So does Canon 5Ds(r).
Which files do you have to show you are neither a liar nor a troll?
You need to post your raw files of all the cameras mentioned to substantiate your laughable claims.
And obviously the shots need to be using the same subject, taken at the same time with the same exposure settings.

Canons white noise issue:
QuoteQuote:
The new Canon 5Ds/r with 50MP on the other hand doesn’t perform at all for long exposure photography. From the various long exposure testshots I’ve seen taken with this specific camera, here’s a review by renowned long exposure photographer Cole Thompson for example, the noise is already a huge issue with very short long exposures. As long as Canon doesn’t acknowledge and tackle this issue I would simply not recommend this camera if long exposure photography is an important part of your style of photography.
QuoteQuote:
while at 240 seconds the noise is completely unacceptable. I only have a few shots to judge this by, but all of my longer exposures have this noise and so I’m sorry to report that my first results with the 5DSr are disappointing from a long exposure perspective.
Canon 5DSr Noise Issues | Cole Thompson Photography

Here is what you get on Canon (twice the price of a K-1):
http://www.photographyblackwhite.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Spiral-Jetty-240-sec.jpg
Canon 5DSr = White noise.

08-24-2016, 10:55 AM   #32
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,905
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
DSP Firmware Version : 1.20.21.09
Production Code : 2.2
Manufacture Date : 2016:03:05

I have the white dots in the shadows...
Oh, that was unexpected. A 2.2 with an earlier date than my 2.1. And with the white dots.
So production code 2.2 alone does not fix the problem, and does not mean "newer model" only different model.
08-24-2016, 11:04 AM   #33
Pentaxian
Tjompen1968's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,300
QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Oh, that was unexpected. A 2.2 with an earlier date than my 2.1. And with the white dots.
So production code 2.2 alone does not fix the problem, and does not mean "newer model" only different model.
That is why I felt I needed to reply.
08-24-2016, 11:42 AM   #34
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,909
Production Code can mean anything. Something like:

2.2 = Assembly table 2; Shift 2

Coupled with the date as a QC track.

I do not believe Serial Numbers are sequential either. In the Serial Number Database here there are enough mfg date entries to suggest they aren't. My K-1 is 30 days out of sequence, for instance. Eaglem is nearly 5 month out according to serial sequence vs. embedded mfg date.

To sort by serial click serial in upper left header of the table.


Last edited by monochrome; 08-24-2016 at 11:51 AM.
08-24-2016, 12:59 PM   #35
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,905
Original Poster
I did some testing / comparison with the K5 and a 5 min exposure with lens cap on at iso400.

I also pushed the exposure another 5 steps to get something to look at. Noise filters and sharpness are off.

100% crop from around the middle of the frame, K-5 to the left and K-1 to the right.

First picture with no hot pixel removal,

and second picture with hot pixel removal on and aggressiveness to max.

*** EDIT: The hot pixel removal was not done in-camera but afterwards using Rawtherapee. ***

There is a very noticeable difference between the K-5 and K-1. And here I was under the impression that they should behave about equal at pixel level.
The difference is so large I wonder if I did something wrong....

But then this would have been much more interesting had there been some details to look at and see how the aggressive hot pixel filter affected the details, well maybe next time.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Gimbal; 08-25-2016 at 12:18 AM.
08-24-2016, 01:06 PM   #36
Veteran Member
MJKoski's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 761
Beholder3, what exactly is your issue? Why such attitude? I hope this forum is not like dpreview sony forum which went to full denial mode after I brought up star trail corruption issue with Sony CRAW format. It was only after Raw-digger guys published my RAW file when people saw the light.

I can share fair amount of examples using mentioned cameras but that kind of attitude killed any motivation to do so. Just FYI: 5Dsr gets to 8 minutes easily without LENR at -10C temp. When it gets hot it gets hot and that may well be at summer temps. K-1 however starts artifacting at any ISO with 30 seconds or more. It produces white pixels even when put to freezer for 30 minutes.
08-24-2016, 01:16 PM   #37
Pentaxian
D1N0's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: ---
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,845
QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
I did some testing / comparison with the K5 and a 5 min exposure with lens cap on at iso400.

I also pushed the exposure another 5 steps to get something to look at. Noise filters and sharpness are off.

100% crop from around the middle of the frame, K-5 to the left and K-1 to the right.

First picture with no hot pixel removal,

and second picture with hot pixel removal on and aggressiveness to max.

There is a very noticeable difference between the K-5 and K-1. And here I was under the impression that they should behave about equal at pixel level.
The difference is so large I wonder if I did something wrong....

But then this would have been much more interesting had there been some details to look at and see how the aggressive hot pixel filter affected the details, well maybe next time.

I see different behaviour from k-5 to k-1

K-1 removes not only white dots but also red and blue ones making the noise cleaner. The K-5 seems to blow up the noise a bit.
08-24-2016, 03:19 PM   #38
Veteran Member
MJKoski's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 761
You are not seeing fairies. In-camera LENR is quite destructive with K-1 and should never be used with PS function for example. Which is kind of shame because PS still retains details at ISO3200 but requires LENR or other tricks to get rid of excessive amount of white pixels. However using LENR in-camera makes PS image to loose all those fine details.

08-24-2016, 09:45 PM   #39
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 673
So is k-1 not a good choice for some astro stuff? I haven't pulled the trigger yet, was planning to get k1 next week (bh notified me they have it in stock now). I got into landscape photography recently (that's the main reason I sold all my mft gear and want to switch to ff), and astro was one of the things I really wanted to do, we have amazing brights bight skies around my area and I wanted to take advantage of the ff with a wide lens..

---------- Post added 08-24-16 at 10:13 PM ----------

I Googled the issue, and found this thread. However, few people in comments shared files they took without the issue. Could it be possible that the white noise is indeed prevent in the earlier bodies?
Does the Pentax K-1 also has the white dots issue during long exposures? | Pentax Rumors

I really like the k-1, but I do want to try astro..
08-25-2016, 12:11 AM   #40
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: GMT +10
Photos: Albums
Posts: 10,660
QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
So is k-1 not a good choice for some astro stuff?
One might gain that impression from some of the posts in this thread, but on the other hand there is this series of astro-related tests where the K-1 does very well indeed:

The Sensor Noise DB. – Brendan Davey Photography

and, of course, Pentax themselves have highlighted the camera as an astro shooter.

Plus as a night shooting package (price, good sensor, Astro-tracer, GPS, flippy screen, control illumination LED's), the K-1 seems to be hard to beat.

White dots at 100-200% magnification may or may not be visible for you too, depending on a wide range of so-far indeterminate shooting or environmental variables.

Last edited by rawr; 08-25-2016 at 12:22 AM.
08-25-2016, 12:19 AM   #41
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,231
QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
I can share fair amount of examples using mentioned cameras but that kind of attitude killed any motivation to do so. J
What is your issue, MJKoski? You claim comparisons but don't present solid proof.
Unless you actually provide raws to support your claim you seem to be an incompetent liar / troll only, thanks to your underskilled opening post. If you lack the "motivation" to show you didn't lie and it's just your lack of skill that is behind it, fine. If you don't present raws of the exact same scene taken side by side with same exposure parameters and camera temperatures to support your claims you automatically prove you lied. It's that easy.
It's already telling you did not do so without external reminder in your opening post.

If you consider LENR a "trick" you should go back and start to learn the basics.

It is not any news that a tiny bit of noise happens in long exposures in all cameras and it is far from being any issue aside from the normal issue between the ears of users. That is what dark frame subtraction (= LENR) is for: for removing white and red and blue and green hot pixels.

If we ever see any camera which does not produce noise in a long exposure we know the manufacturer has screwed around in the raw data. It's super easy for them to do that, but it is clearly unwanted.

So far all we see is JPGs of people claiming things with no comparison data available. The failure apologists could claim the earth is flat based on some JPG "proof" just as easily.

---------- Post added 25th Aug 2016 at 09:23 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I see different behaviour from k-5 to k-1

K-1 removes not only white dots but also red and blue ones making the noise cleaner.
DFS is supposed to do just that.

To compare to a K-5 the K-1 image part has to be resized otherwise you only compare different magnifications.
08-25-2016, 12:42 AM   #42
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,905
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
You are not seeing fairies. In-camera LENR is quite destructive with K-1 and should never be used with PS function for example.
Sorry, I see now that I forgot to mention that the removal of hot pixels where not done in camera by dark frame subtraction, but done afterwards by Rawtherapee.

---------- Post added 08-25-2016 at 09:43 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
So is k-1 not a good choice for some astro stuff? I haven't pulled the trigger yet, was planning to get k1 next week (bh notified me they have it in stock now). I got into landscape photography recently (that's the main reason I sold all my mft gear and want to switch to ff), and astro was one of the things I really wanted to do, we have amazing brights bight skies around my area and I wanted to take advantage of the ff with a wide lens..

---------- Post added 08-24-16 at 10:13 PM ----------

I Googled the issue, and found this thread. However, few people in comments shared files they took without the issue. Could it be possible that the white noise is indeed prevent in the earlier bodies?
Does the Pentax K-1 also has the white dots issue during long exposures? | Pentax Rumors

I really like the k-1, but I do want to try astro..
The test pictures above does indicate a lot of hot pixels, on the other hand they were easily removed.
(They were removed by Rawtherapee, not the built in functions.)
The question is how the removal would affect real stars.

But we can also see that beside the hot pixels the image has a lot less noise compared to the K-5. While this is promising we can’t really tell (from these pictures) how good the sensor picks up weak signals as the pictures were shot with the lens cap on.
More tests has to be done. It does look promising though.
08-25-2016, 03:00 AM - 2 Likes   #43
Veteran Member
MJKoski's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 761
Here is an example of Pixel shifted ISO 3200 image, 30 seconds, +30C temp, no LENR. An old abandoned ship engine room. Part of my Skeleton-project.



100% crop from original color image



--

Then, an example that 5Dsr which was deemed bad by some well-known elite photographer, produces spectacular results @ ISO100, 593 seconds, no LENR, -10C temp, pushed 0.8EV.



100% crop



K-1 may or may not work better in cold. It remains to be seen. So far it looks to be working like A7R2 which fails in hot conditions and works nicely in sub-zero conditions. Go have a look at my gallery: mjkoski.1g.fi

What I explained is 100% true and self tested. I have used every top end DSLR-system there is during the recent years and all Sony A7x variants for as long they have been available. Among those, K-1 only ranks about average in IQ when not using PS. I will introduce a field review of K-1 shortly.
08-25-2016, 04:36 AM   #44
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,231
QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
What I explained is 100% true and self tested. I have used every top end DSLR-system there is during the recent years and all Sony A7x variants for as long they have been available.
Is this a clown-show?
LE noise "compared" with two completely different images? Completely ignoring even the -10°C versus +30°C environment? . Different light levels. ISO 3200 versus ISO 100.
Did you start shooting yesterday or did you just not learn at all for a longer time?
What do you think where the noise comes from on any LE? What do you think why do astrophotographers like cooling their cameras?

I can show JPG images with any noise type and level I desire from any camera and claim whatever I want.
Comparable raws are needed, all carefully set-up to avoid beginner errors such as yours.
08-25-2016, 04:49 AM   #45
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 307
QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
Here is an example of Pixel shifted ISO 3200 image, 30 seconds, +30C temp, no LENR. An old abandoned ship engine room. Part of my Skeleton-project.
Ok ,calm down everybody.

Please, would you be so kind to post from your exif data Firmware version, Production code and Manufacture date of your K-1 ?

I'm not having "white dot" issue even with ISO 3200, 300 seconds exposures and similar 30+ temperatures celsius so I'm trying to help others to figure out what is the problem.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
astro, camera, data, dfs, dot, dslr, exif, exposure, exposures, ff, full frame, full-frame, heat, issue, k-1, k-1 white dot, k-5, k1, nikon, noise, pentax, pentax k-1, type, viewer
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale - Sold: White Pentax K-r + White Kit Lens + 2 Extra Batteries + 1 Extra Charger MightyMike Sold Items 2 04-14-2015 07:21 AM
Lost white dot bassek Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 15 09-06-2012 10:22 AM
White Dot on 50mm f1.4 Super-Tak roboticspro Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 6 04-07-2011 03:03 AM
white dot on live view screen Shingkyo Pentax K-r 7 03-14-2011 06:54 AM
old lenses- that little plastic white dot? dandaniel Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 6 02-25-2009 02:13 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:34 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top