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08-08-2016, 04:44 PM   #16
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Thanks for the link. I have always preferred C1 color tools over LR and Fuji definitely understands color. I will have to give it a try.

08-08-2016, 09:48 PM   #17
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Never cared for Fuji digital colors, so YMMV as with such things (though I do prefer Canon for skin tones in general).

With the latest LR, the Pentax color options are there with I like enough to stay with it (Natural setting generally looks good for me and certainly better than the generic setting )
08-08-2016, 10:00 PM   #18
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Thanks for the link, im not using CO9, i have the 8 version of the software, im downloading this profiles if someday i go to the next version

08-09-2016, 03:55 AM   #19
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I used Huelight's dedicated colour profiles for the K-1 and K-3. Highly recommended.

08-09-2016, 04:35 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Are you sure these icc profiles do that, though, Gnugent?

I've always understood them to be simple colour maps - they don't do any demosaicing at all!
Hi Clackers when do the debayer you need to map out to a colour, it's easier if i quote from bill crows article

"The latest trend for serious digital photographers are RAW workflow image processing applications, including Adobe® Lightroom® or Apple® Aperture™. With these applications, the photographer works directly with the RAW file until the final image is rendered for display or printing. In actuality, it’s impossible to work directly with the RAW file for image processing because its not even an image yet. It must first be de-mosaiced from the source Bayer pattern format and transformed from the unique input referred color space for the particular camera"

raw is raw and just has meta data attached so the first step which is where the debayer happens this has to map to a space you can understand and which is display referred so the camera generates the input/scene referred colour and the icc setting or camera profile is what the is use to map out for you to look at

hence when you shoot a DNG file the image you see on the back of the camera is the internal workings of the pentax generating a display referred image which is either mapping out to ARGB or SRGB with the initial tweaks you have added with the onboard camera profile camera bright ,landascape etc......the problem arise when you get the raw in to say lightroom the camera profile needs to match what you where shooting with or else the image you saw on the back of the camera won,t be what you see in lightroom

---------- Post added 08-09-16 at 04:41 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Never cared for Fuji digital colors, so YMMV as with such things (though I do prefer Canon for skin tones in general).

With the latest LR, the Pentax color options are there with I like enough to stay with it (Natural setting generally looks good for me and certainly better than the generic setting )
canon may be great in the stills world with skin tone but when we get video footage coming in shot on a Canon 5d Mk3 unless the camera man really knew what he was doing every one has red heads, over saturated ....and as it not RAW only H264 ... so its an utter pig to work on.
08-09-2016, 03:51 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by gnugent Quote
Hi Clackers when do the debayer you need to map out to a colour, it's easier if i quote from bill crows article

"The latest trend for serious digital photographers are RAW workflow image processing applications, including Adobe® Lightroom® or Apple® Aperture™. With these applications, the photographer works directly with the RAW file until the final image is rendered for display or printing. In actuality, it’s impossible to work directly with the RAW file for image processing because its not even an image yet. It must first be de-mosaiced from the source Bayer pattern format and transformed from the unique input referred color space for the particular camera"

raw is raw and just has meta data attached so the first step which is where the debayer happens this has to map to a space you can understand and which is display referred so the camera generates the input/scene referred colour and the icc setting or camera profile is what the is use to map out for you to look at.

Pretty sure now you've misunderstood, Gnugent.

There are two steps involved in what Crows says. The icc setting or camera profile is only the second.

The first is demosaicing.

It's an exercise in interpolation, not colour mapping, and your profiles won't do it. There are twice as many green pixels as red or blue, for instance. Software has to perform that task first, whether in camera or on a computer, then colour spaces can be decided.

Here's a MAN page from DCRAW for instance ... it offers four algorithms.

Manpage of dcraw

Last edited by clackers; 08-09-2016 at 03:59 PM.
08-09-2016, 05:09 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
OK I guess not all raw developers make linear workflow possible.
dcraw and its derivatives are the only ones I am aware of, not that doing so has any particular advantage.


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08-09-2016, 05:10 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I've always understood them to be simple colour maps - they don't do any demosaicing at all!
My understanding as well.


Steve

08-09-2016, 05:12 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by gnugent Quote
hence when you shoot a DNG file the image you see on the back of the camera is the internal workings of the pentax
What you are seeing is the embedded JPEG.


Steve
08-09-2016, 05:29 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by gnugent Quote
Disclaimer ..... Colour is a very subjective and personal thing ....so you may not agree with some of below it's my view...sorry and about typos and the length of this

Ok so i do love the K1 its a great camera but since day one i have had issue with it,s colour, i have been using fuji camera for years x100,x70 xpro 1 ..so i have been spoiled a bit

if you shot a jpeg with one of these camera its pretty gorgeous straight of the bat no work required this is due to the use of fuji,s in built film emulation Velvia,astia etc

however after a lot of testing a fiddling i can,t get anything close to that,a with jpeg out of the K1 camera bright ,natural tweaking the setting etc...so i sort of gave up

i shoot raw most of the time any way, so if you bring in a fuji RAF file to light room and drop the correct colour profile on it say Velvia ...pop..... your there and everything looks great to start to work on it ....but you can,t use these profiles on any other camera type.

if you bring the Penatx dng in to light room you get some profiles, camera bright ,landscape ...etc .....however back to square one for me ... these are the same as the camera would apply to the jpg ...so again i,m not happy with the colour and i have to do a good bit of work to get the colour how i want them ....even then it's not 100% how i want it

So i moved over fully to capture one a while back as i,m from a background of video and film , it feels much closer with some of the colour correction tools like Davinci resolve i use

however things are worse in capture one, if you bring in a Pentax K1 DNG in, you get a generic profile with is pretty grim and there is a fair bit of work to do to get it right or nice

I was beginning to dispair a bit with this, as with each shoot i was going to have to do a fair bit of fiddling with the image to get what i wanted ..which is much more a filmic look...as thats the world i work in

so The dream would be fuji colour camera profiles that work on a Pentax k1 DNG

I start to search and work out how to emulate those fuji colour profiles ....well it looks like i wasn,t alone ...people where try to put it on nikons and canon raws... the fuji colour thing is quite big

and then i found it...... some utter genius has managed to reverse engineer the colour profile for the fuji film simulations including ARCO from the xpro2 so you can use them in capture one on your raws

the profiles can be download here ( these are the best versions pulled from the xpro2) if you scroll down the arco one is there as well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4025876#forum-post-58018479

and the discussion on how to install them are here.... going from the most resent page ( this is capture one only and you need 9.2)

Capture One Pro 8 Film Simulations - Page 5 - RAW conversion Fuji X-Trans Sensor - Fuji X Forum


if you get it to work correctly instead of just the generic K1 in profile in capture one you will get the drop down for the ARGB and the SRGB version of the film emulations....and it will bring you very very close to the start point i was used to shooting on a fuji

so i,m blown away it's like have a full frame fuji camera ......that may erk some people here but sorry

obviously colour is a very personal thing ..but the thing for me is fuji make film..... Canon,nikon and Pentax have never produced a roll of film in there history as far as i know ....so when it comes to the colours with film ,fuji know more about it

any way i hope thats of some use to somebody ....i,m over the moon Ha!

your milage may vary
Anyone aware of profiles like these for Lightroom? Having so much trouble getting useable colors with this K1 so far.
08-10-2016, 04:05 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Pretty sure now you've misunderstood, Gnugent.

There are two steps involved in what Crows says. The icc setting or camera profile is only the second.

The first is demosaicing.

It's an exercise in interpolation, not colour mapping, and your profiles won't do it. There are twice as many green pixels as red or blue, for instance. Software has to perform that task first, whether in camera or on a computer, then colour spaces can be decided.

Here's a MAN page from DCRAW for instance ... it offers four algorithms.

Manpage of dcraw
From an absolution execution point of view you're correct the image is demosaiced first .... but what it comes out at is dependent on the profile being used ....it has to map to a colour space so they go hand in hand

to my knowledge it can,t complete the debayer operation without it the image it being mapped into a color space / representation even linear is colorspace, so to look at the image you need to go a display referred colour space SRGB,P3 ,PROPHOTO, etc

what the icc, profile in capture one is giving you part of that information...... Here you straight from the capture one manual

"Capture One provides accurate color by reading the camera-generated RAW information, file header and settings file.

A RAW file is assigned a color profile once Capture One has established which camera model has been used. The RAW data is then translated to the internal working color space of Capture One and it is here that edits can be applied.

Image data is converted, by means of ICC profiles, to industry standard spaces such as Adobe RGB or sRGB during the processing stage."

my problem is that initial ICC generic profile for the K1 is,nt great from the get go so you have to do more work to get the image pleasing ...in my view FUJI do a better job with the profiles ...

---------- Post added 08-10-16 at 04:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by SamuelDixon Quote
Anyone aware of profiles like these for Lightroom? Having so much trouble getting useable colors with this K1 so far.
Lightroom uses DCP profiles not ICC and these are ICC ....however they are already built into Lightroom ...but i have no idea how you get at them
08-10-2016, 09:48 AM - 1 Like   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by gnugent Quote
and then i found it...... some utter genius has managed to reverse engineer the colour profile for the fuji film simulations including ARCO from the xpro2 so you can use them in capture one on your raws
Thanks heaps for the pointers to these!

Based on your sample image, I find that the Velvia profile results in too yellowish skin tones and is too contrasty, the Astia still a bit too yellow, but the Provia rather nice and definitely a marked improvement over the generic K-1 profile (which I'm sure is the standard embedded K-1 profile by Pentax). I'll have to check the Provia profile on other images but it certainly looks very promising.

I find it surprising that the profiles work pretty well for the K-1, even though they were designed for a different camera. It would be quite a coincidence if the colour filters were very similar, wouldn't it? That makes me believe that a well-engineered profile for the K-1 would be even better than say the Provia.

I would like to encourage everyone to use the "Contact technical support" link on the Phase One support page in order to request a Phase One engineered colour profile for the K-1. Phase One uses frequency of requests to determine priority, so the more register their interest, the more likely it becomes that we will be rewarded.

On the one hand, I'm glad that Phase One responded to initial requests to provide support for the K-1 (and according to one user are even supposedly working on PixelShift support). On the other hand, the current K-1 profile is just using the standard Pentax profile that is embedded in every DNG file. I think if Phase One engineered one themselves, it would be much better.

FWIW, I left Lightroom because I was getting frustrated with the ACR colours for the K-5 II. The K100D worked well enough, but Adobe never have appeared to put much effort into supporting Pentax colours in the past. I also dislike their "twisted" profiles that change hues depending on lightness. Finally, I dislike the shoddy software quality of LR and Adobe's product philosophy, let alone their "subscription" scheme that they are trying to push on everyone.

Here's to hoping that Capture One support for the K-1 will further improve.

Last edited by Class A; 08-10-2016 at 09:53 AM.
08-10-2016, 08:56 PM   #28
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BTW, if one renames the profile files, they should show up as recommended profiles for the K-1. I'm yet to try the profiles but will share the correct names once successful.

N.B., Scottie Wang explained how he created the profiles. We should be able to do the same using the K-1's true raw response as a starting point. While he uses some commercial software, it seems that the free "Argyll" should also support the creation of ICC profiles for C1.
08-11-2016, 05:31 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks heaps for the pointers to these!

Based on your sample image, I find that the Velvia profile results in too yellowish skin tones and is too contrasty, the Astia still a bit too yellow, but the Provia rather nice and definitely a marked improvement over the generic K-1 profile (which I'm sure is the standard embedded K-1 profile by Pentax). I'll have to check the Provia profile on other images but it certainly looks very promising.

I find it surprising that the profiles work pretty well for the K-1, even though they were designed for a different camera. It would be quite a coincidence if the colour filters were very similar, wouldn't it? That makes me believe that a well-engineered profile for the K-1 would be even better than say the Provia.

I would like to encourage everyone to use the "Contact technical support" link on the Phase One support page in order to request a Phase One engineered colour profile for the K-1. Phase One uses frequency of requests to determine priority, so the more register their interest, the more likely it becomes that we will be rewarded.

On the one hand, I'm glad that Phase One responded to initial requests to provide support for the K-1 (and according to one user are even supposedly working on PixelShift support). On the other hand, the current K-1 profile is just using the standard Pentax profile that is embedded in every DNG file. I think if Phase One engineered one themselves, it would be much better.

FWIW, I left Lightroom because I was getting frustrated with the ACR colours for the K-5 II. The K100D worked well enough, but Adobe never have appeared to put much effort into supporting Pentax colours in the past. I also dislike their "twisted" profiles that change hues depending on lightness. Finally, I dislike the shoddy software quality of LR and Adobe's product philosophy, let alone their "subscription" scheme that they are trying to push on everyone.

Here's to hoping that Capture One support for the K-1 will further improve.
looking around the forum it seems like others are having similar issue with the profile i do know phase one up date these now and again so there is hope

your correct it is the wrong profiles for the sensor..... to that end i have been also looking at the using the icc profiles for the sonys that are built in to capture one some work quite well i think the A7R and d800 have a similar if not the same sensor if you google "35.9 x 24.0 mm cmos sensor" which is the size of k1 sensor it comes up with few camera which have it .....and i think that it is a sony sensor in there ...bit of a guess on that one


i also left lightroom for very similar reasons ...plus which struck me as odd at first every single professional photo shoot i have ever attended .. and we do lots for fashion shoots and food stuff every single one shoots tethered to capture one ....none of them use lightroom ...so it may have something over lightroom ......i don,t want to start a lightroom....capture one war............. but that my observation
08-11-2016, 07:36 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by gnugent Quote
...i think the A7R and d800 have a similar if not the same sensor...
Yes, it is most likely that the K-1 shares the same Sony sensor with these cameras (and not the one from the D810, as people often write).

However, even though the sensor could be the same, the CFA (colour-filter-array) need not be the same. The colour profile mostly depends on the characteristics of the colour filters used in the CFA (that forms the Bayer pattern). I don't think there is any substitute for using the K-1 itself to create a profile for it.

I plan looking into that, as soon as I find some time.
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