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09-10-2016, 06:34 AM   #16
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Anyone who is getting lower noise from any of the APS-C bodies than the K-1 either has a defective body or it is user error. If the camera is working correctly and the user is processing them correctly, then the RAW files of the K-1 are going to give better results than any of the APS-C bodies.

09-10-2016, 07:40 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Anyone who is getting lower noise from any of the APS-C bodies than the K-1 either has a defective body or it is user error. If the camera is working correctly and the user is processing them correctly, then the RAW files of the K-1 are going to give better results than any of the APS-C bodies.
Hence the question asked by the original poster. Do they need to send the camera in for repair?

Is there a standard defined test for noise that allows you to check it yourself? We really need one because there area lot of answers here that point to things that can cause noise. Having a procedure to follow would be a great way to home in the on the issue. Bad camera sensor? Need firmware update? Does shake reduction induce noise? etc.

Not all of us are post processing wizards or even all that smart on what induces noise into a digital photograph in the first place. I have experienced theses same issues with my K1. It is not all the time but I have deleted a few images made at ISO's as low as ISO 800 because of noise issues. I haven't found the connection yet, but it is not a problem that I have with my K5 or K5-IIs. Until I have the time to chase this down myself, I keep the ISO setting on my K1 at 200 or below whenever possible. Not really an issue for me as I always used films rated ASA (shout out to the other old timers here)100 or lower.

FWIW, I always shoot RAW.
09-10-2016, 08:00 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
Hence the question asked by the original poster. Do they need to send the camera in for repair?
Its hard to answer the question without actual test pictures to look at. Its almost like someone coming on the board and saying "my pictures look funny. what is wrong?" He needs to post pictures with as few variables as possible with all the data that shows his problem. Same subject, same lens, same exposure settings, taken from a tripod from the same location.

The 36MP sensor in the K-1 is basically a larger, newer version of the 16MP sensor found in the K-5.
09-10-2016, 08:03 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by gerardbaron Quote
By the way the K-5 is a much better camera than the K-1 question of IQ.
Perhaps you have a defective K-1. Otherwise, there is no reason to come to that conclusion.

As many others have posted already, you should not compare a 36MP image at 100% viewing magnification with a 16MP image at 100% viewing magnification. If you like to evaluate image noise at 100% magnification, either shoot the K-1 in crop mode or (better) downsample the 36MP to 16MP before you make a comparison with a K-5 shot.

09-10-2016, 08:33 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
Might as well call me a troll too because my K5 and K5-IIs both kill my K1 regarding noise. My experience is similar to the original posters. I was wondering about all the praise this camera gets about how great it controls noise. Some of my higher ISO shots have me scratching my head too. Easy enough to get rid of, but it is more pronounced that I thought it would be based upon various comments I have read about noise on the K1. I was going start a post about the same thing, but now, I am glad I didn't.

I was going to sell my K5's but based upon my personal experience, I am going to keep them for high ISO situations. They simply rock in that situation.

Below are two images. Both taken with at ISO 6400, no post processing other than converting to jpeg using PDCU 5 that came with my K1. Top one is from my K5-IIs. Bottom from my K1. Enjoy.
@gaweidert
I also have K-5 (5 years) and K-1 (less than 2 months).
Sorry but K-5 is not even close to K-1 with high ISO capabilities.
There are only 2 possibilities: a) your error b) your K-1 is defective
You should also try another shot with K-1 in similar condition but with different lens, could be a lens problem.

Can't say anything about your examples because pictures are too small and K-5 picture is blurred (probably out of focus but blur could be also result of a heavy noise reduction) and should be re-shoot with proper focusing. Otherwise I can't conclude anything even with raw file available.
K-1 photo looks good regarding focus and exposure, so if you want as to help please upload that file to some cloud space and give us a link to download and analyze that raw file and its exif data.

Btw, do you had any kind of filter on your K-1 lens when you took that shot? Which one?

---------- Post added 09-10-16 at 06:00 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
Why calling user a troll again? If his camera body is affected by the white dot issue it can be seen with ISO100 exposures pushed few stops in post with 30 second exposure. Sharpness is another thing though, that issue has nothing to do with image sharpness.
Who is calling user a troll? I search this topic and that word comes first in your message

Btw users who complaints in this topic are using K-1 most likely handheld with usual exposure times for that type of shooting so it probably isn't related to white dots issue.

Even very experienced photographers are making mistakes with new cameras, my bet is that most of those problems with noise are user errors.
09-10-2016, 09:15 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by banep Quote
@gaweidert
I also have K-5 (5 years) and K-1 (less than 2 months).
Sorry but K-5 is not even close to K-1 with high ISO capabilities.
There are only 2 possibilities: a) your error b) your K-1 is defective
You should also try another shot with K-1 in similar condition but with different lens, could be a lens problem.

Can't say anything about your examples because pictures are too small and K-5 picture is blurred (probably out of focus but blur could be also result of a heavy noise reduction) and should be re-shoot with proper focusing. Otherwise I can't conclude anything even with raw file available.
K-1 photo looks good regarding focus and exposure, so if you want as to help please upload that file to some cloud space and give us a link to download and analyze that raw file and its exif data.

Btw, do you had any kind of filter on your K-1 lens when you took that shot? Which one?
No filters on the lens. Top image was an old Pentax A* 28-80mm zoom and the bottom was with my D FA 150-450 zoom. I have more K5 images taken at ISO 6400 and very few on my K1. The shots that I posted have no corrections applied at all. I have some shots of a fire that I took with the K5 that come out quite nice,

When I take the two converted shots and look at them on my laptop using the Windows viewer, the difference is noticeable. I am not yet ready to discount me as the source of the problem. I have not tested the two cameras side by side using the same lens on the same subject matter at the same speeds etc. I am not sure it I even will.

But I have noticed that even at ISO 800 I seem to sometimes notice more noise on shots made with my K1 than I would expect. I am not sure of the cause of this and since I prefer to use ISO 100 it is not an issue with me. What prompted me to even reply to this thread in the first place were the personal attacks on the original poster that have now been thankfully deleted. I too have noticed this same thing. To me it is just something I noticed and deal with accordingly. In the olden days when I shot film, I always used film with an ASA rating of 100 or lower. So It would not bother me if the max ISO rating of a DSLR camera was only 3200.

My DSLR's are tools. Based upon my experience if I am in a situation that requires high ISO shooting, and I have my K5 or K5-IIs available I will use that instead. I would rather this than switch the K1 to crop mode. In fact I have had my K1 for over three months now and I have not shot a single photograph in the crop mode with it. It just give such delicious images when using it as a full frame camera.

Here is another image made with my K5-IIs shot at ISO 6400 with no noise reduction applied. This from 3 years ago and the same night as the top image I posted on the thread above this.
Attached Images
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PENTAX K-5 II s  Photo 
09-10-2016, 10:13 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
No filters on the lens. Top image was an old Pentax A* 28-80mm zoom and the bottom was with my D FA 150-450 zoom. I have more K5 images taken at ISO 6400 and very few on my K1. The shots that I posted have no corrections applied at all. I have some shots of a fire that I took with the K5 that come out quite nice,

When I take the two converted shots and look at them on my laptop using the Windows viewer, the difference is noticeable. I am not yet ready to discount me as the source of the problem. I have not tested the two cameras side by side using the same lens on the same subject matter at the same speeds etc. I am not sure it I even will.

But I have noticed that even at ISO 800 I seem to sometimes notice more noise on shots made with my K1 than I would expect. I am not sure of the cause of this and since I prefer to use ISO 100 it is not an issue with me. What prompted me to even reply to this thread in the first place were the personal attacks on the original poster that have now been thankfully deleted. I too have noticed this same thing. To me it is just something I noticed and deal with accordingly. In the olden days when I shot film, I always used film with an ASA rating of 100 or lower. So It would not bother me if the max ISO rating of a DSLR camera was only 3200.

My DSLR's are tools. Based upon my experience if I am in a situation that requires high ISO shooting, and I have my K5 or K5-IIs available I will use that instead. I would rather this than switch the K1 to crop mode. In fact I have had my K1 for over three months now and I have not shot a single photograph in the crop mode with it. It just give such delicious images when using it as a full frame camera.

Here is another image made with my K5-IIs shot at ISO 6400 with no noise reduction applied. This from 3 years ago and the same night as the top image I posted on the thread above this.
I'm going out for a hiking and I won't be available until monday.

That is a very nice image, but it is not good for testing purposes.
It is small, it is soft (probably shot wide open) and it is not K-1.
If you want to provide us a file for testing purposes it should be K-1 raw file properly focused and exposed.
Previous one shot with 150-450 looks good, focus is somewhere on 1/3 of a path, it is a little bit dark but exposure is pretty much correct for that lighting conditions, we just need that raw file here.
Btw, I don't have a lot of expirience in shooting with super telephoto lenses but when I'm using long lenses I'm avoiding very dark situations like this with my K-5 because I usually have huge amount of noise.
It will be nice for you to compare amount of noise K-1 vs K-5 @ISO6400 with 150-450 mounted and in similar lighting conditions.
You should also try similar test with K-5 and K-1 @ISO6400 but with some 35mm or 50mm lens mounted and stopped down (not wide open).

Good luck with your testing I hope you will figure it out what is going on with your K-1.
09-10-2016, 11:06 AM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michaelina2 Quote
For noise issues and sharpening, my workflow starts using the technique described here...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/136-pentax-q/284585-extreme-telephoto-tip...ml#post3189008

Even works for up to iso16000 images captured with the K-1... easy, peasy...

You mention struggling with iso800... here's one at iso1000...

K-1+DA*300/4+HD 1.4TC, handheld, native lighting, close crop, LR(CC)+NIK... (click for link to Flickr image and EXIF data)



BTW... I'm 74+yo living the good side of a < 50yo's life ? (retired, though )

Cheers... M
Ok thanks to all with the informations
Also I will reset the camera and lightroom to default
I am going to shoot some test photos, I will post them soon.

09-10-2016, 11:07 AM   #24
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@banep: the first post in this thread were either edited or deleted. It was kind of nasty start.
09-10-2016, 11:57 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
Might as well call me a troll too because my K5 and K5-IIs both kill my K1 regarding noise. My experience is similar to the original posters. I was wondering about all the praise this camera gets about how great it controls noise. Some of my higher ISO shots have me scratching my head too. Easy enough to get rid of, but it is more pronounced that I thought it would be based upon various comments I have read about noise on the K1. I was going start a post about the same thing, but now, I am glad I didn't.

I was going to sell my K5's but based upon my personal experience, I am going to keep them for high ISO situations. They simply rock in that situation.

Below are two images. Both taken with at ISO 6400, no post processing other than converting to jpeg using PDCU 5 that came with my K1. Top one is from my K5-IIs. Bottom from my K1. Enjoy.
QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
No filters on the lens. Top image was an old Pentax A* 28-80mm zoom and the bottom was with my D FA 150-450 zoom. I have more K5 images taken at ISO 6400 and very few on my K1. The shots that I posted have no corrections applied at all. I have some shots of a fire that I took with the K5 that come out quite nice,

When I take the two converted shots and look at them on my laptop using the Windows viewer, the difference is noticeable. I am not yet ready to discount me as the source of the problem. I have not tested the two cameras side by side using the same lens on the same subject matter at the same speeds etc. I am not sure it I even will.

But I have noticed that even at ISO 800 I seem to sometimes notice more noise on shots made with my K1 than I would expect. I am not sure of the cause of this and since I prefer to use ISO 100 it is not an issue with me. What prompted me to even reply to this thread in the first place were the personal attacks on the original poster that have now been thankfully deleted. I too have noticed this same thing. To me it is just something I noticed and deal with accordingly. In the olden days when I shot film, I always used film with an ASA rating of 100 or lower. So It would not bother me if the max ISO rating of a DSLR camera was only 3200.

My DSLR's are tools. Based upon my experience if I am in a situation that requires high ISO shooting, and I have my K5 or K5-IIs available I will use that instead. I would rather this than switch the K1 to crop mode. In fact I have had my K1 for over three months now and I have not shot a single photograph in the crop mode with it. It just give such delicious images when using it as a full frame camera.

Here is another image made with my K5-IIs shot at ISO 6400 with no noise reduction applied. This from 3 years ago and the same night as the top image I posted on the thread above this.
Gaweidert, the two images you shot with the k-5IIs and presented here have bright sources of light in them. Despite the camera selecting ISO 3200, the brighter overall frame and the especially bright areas will have significantly less noise than if you took a less lit image at ISO 3200 - even with the same camera. Noise is random electrical signal triggering the sensor's individual pixels. At high ISO, the sensitivity is amplified and thus the noise has a higher chance of triggering the pixel. Having a subject that is bright will cause the sensor to clearly capture that subject even if you are at high sensitivity - as the bright subject is a much stronger signal than the random noise. Therefore the first shot with the bright lamp and the second shot with the fire is going to seem less noisy at ISO 3200 than if those two sources of light weren't there.

In your k-1 shot, there is no bright sources of light. It's evenly dark and in that case, noise will be most prevalent. You must compare equally lit and equally colourful images to get a properly determination of noise levels between two cameras.

I have neither camera so I am not saying that your k-1 is definitely better or equal to the k-5IIs, although it should be as they share the same base sensor (just different size), I am just explaining that linking two images of significantly different light levels and subjects is not a good way to judge noise.
09-10-2016, 12:59 PM - 1 Like   #26
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Noise Test: LIVE VIEW

Photos Taken with Live View
No corrections


Look at the first left bud
Attached Images
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PENTAX K-1  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-1  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-1  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-1  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-1  Photo 
09-10-2016, 01:08 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by gerardbaron Quote
Photos Taken with Live View No corrections Look at the first left bud
I'm sure you could keep up with this all the way to ISO12800 without getting into trouble with noise.
09-10-2016, 04:04 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
Pixel peeping at 1:1 is not the same with a 36MP file compared to a 16MP file. Any noise you see in a K-1 file will be much less when you downsize or print compared to the K-5.
This is an interesting point. Pixel-wise S/N ratio (what you see at 1:1) should be comparable between the K-5 and the K-1 for a given ISO and exposure time. For equivalent final image size (same pixel dimension), the K-1 should yield more detail (more signal per image).


Steve
09-10-2016, 04:16 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If you like to evaluate image noise at 100% magnification, either shoot the K-1 in crop mode or (better) downsample the 36MP to 16MP before you make a comparison with a K-5 shot.
At 1:1 (100% magnification) there is no difference between crop and FF mode on the K-1. In both, there is a 1:1 mapping of sensor pixel to display pixel. OTOH, downsampling or upsampling is a very good way to assess, though not by eyeballing apparent noise. What should be measured is captured detail. The detailed review of the 645Z on this site shows this quite nicely.

Pentax 645Z Review - Detail and Moire | PentaxForums.com Reviews


Steve
09-10-2016, 04:20 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michaelina2 Quote
For noise issues and sharpening, my workflow starts using the technique described here...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/136-pentax-q/284585-extreme-telephoto-tip...ml#post3189008

Even works for up to iso16000 images captured with the K-1... easy, peasy...

You mention struggling with iso800... here's one at iso1000...

K-1+DA*300/4+HD 1.4TC, handheld, native lighting, close crop, LR(CC)+NIK... (click for link to Flickr image and EXIF data)



...another using the same spec as above, but iso12800...



BTW... I'm 74+yo living the good side of a < 50yo's life... (retired, though )

Cheers... M
Thanks for sharing this. Martin Evening suggests something similar in his Lightroom book. One of these days I am going to have to cook down a similar flow for my own work.


Steve
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