Too much noise on K-1

stevebrot · 09-10-2016, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by MJKoski

@banep: the first post in this thread were either edited or deleted. It was kind of nasty start.

Yes, two posts were very quickly removed from the thread

Steve

stevebrot · 09-10-2016, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by gerardbaron

Photos Taken with Live View
No corrections

Look at the first left bud

Are these crops or down-sampled? They all look fine on my end.

Steve

Rupert · 09-10-2016, 04:59 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by gaweidert

Might as well call me a troll too because my K5 and K5-IIs both kill my K1 regarding noise.

I can almost agree with you on that....I think my K5IIs was at least equal to the K, maybe not better but at least as good. The difference for me is low light focusing...the K1 shines in that area..the K5IIs, well, not so good. I have some great high ISO shots with both cameras....noise is not as important to me as it may be for some, but fast and sure focus even in low light is very important. The K1 pleases me superbly!

Originally posted by mee

two accusations trolling and then a postulation the OP could be on drugs.. some of you are too much with the personal attacks.. and that is what you start with... first response to the OP. incredible.

Agree...we are better than that and should act accordingly. The OP does not fit the mold of a troller, and we should do some "troller research" before we start with the labels.

K1- Shot in very low light ISO 12800 1/80 handheld (Great SR!) f 7.1 @ 240mm...Bigma 50-500

My own experience tells me the noise depends on many factors, not just a few. Some are fine, others not. It was the same with my K5IIs.

If the OP needs help,some of you with better knowledge concentrate on helping him, not cutting him down...please!

Regards!

**monochrome** · 09-10-2016, 05:47 PM

I always start at f/5.6. It's an old high school habit, but it works for me. I start at ISO 200 or 400.

I can hand hold down to 1/30 without creating motion blur. If the camera wants a shutter speed below 1/30, on K-1 I can raise ISO using the third wheel until I'm comfortable. With K-01 (same sensor as K-5) I have to shoot in TAv or take my eye out of shooting position to raise ISO.

Frequently in these shots, if I refuse to open the aperture, I will have underexposed, which I'd rather do than clip highlights. I sometimes go ahead, knowing I can adjust curves in post. I use PDCU to process RAWs sometimes, or PSE, and processing RAW's I rarely have noise when I raise shadows - but if I try to do a quick and dirty cleanup of a camera jpeg it is an entirely different story - they just aren't as malleable as DNG's.

My K-1 files are significantly more flexible than my K-01 files though. I suggest it much more likely the OP has some sort of settings or workflow issue than a faulty sensor, but whatever the case unless 1/200 f/8 is a full manual setting there shouldn't be appreciable noise.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-10-2016 at 06:00 PM.

gerardbaron · 09-10-2016, 07:19 PM

Thanks all of you for your tips.
Thanks Michaela2 for the tips on noise reduction
Here is the final product with a 3200 ISO picture NOT CROP.
Please feel free to give your advice.
Every day I learn from Pentaxforum.

Sandy Hancock · 09-10-2016, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by gerardbaron

Thanks all of you for your tips.
Thanks Michaela2 for the tips on noise reduction
Here is the final product with a 3200 ISO picture NOT CROP.
Please feel free to give your advice.
Every day I learn from Pentaxforum.

Nice shot!
It's hard to make any detailed critique on a web size shot, but it looks sharp enough and noise is not intrusive.
A uniform background like that will tend to accentuate any noise anyway.
Do you have the option of adding some extraneous light and shooting at bas ISO?

stevebarnes · 03-27-2017, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by calsan

Must have left the zero off the model number - K10d? Still, even that gets good shots at iso 800.

I shot with my K-10D for years and loved it. Photos from this camera are in stock galleries. Came out really well. My K3 is better still, although with Tamron 70-200 f/2.8 hunts a bit. My K-1 is wonderful.

normhead · 03-27-2017, 06:25 AM

A couple of high ISO images for you....

Both shot at 3200 ISO

IN this one I even have rescued shadow detail on the otters chest, still no noise.

You can say whatever you want about a K-5 being able to do this. My wife has a K-5 which she still uses every day. My advice, if you believe that, go out with the two cameras and shoot some side by side images using the same settings. Post those, and then we can decide if your K-1 needs servicing.

Just because you are shooting high ISO doesn't mean you can under-expose your image. What I see in your images is large parts of the image that are grossly under-exposed. IN High ISO work, that will lead to emphasized noise because of the amplification required to try and make it look normal. Shooting high ISO means you need more precise control of exposure. and because of the reduced dynamic range, you need to keep the left hand side of your histogram a little bit to the right of the chart border to create some shadow rescue room. It's exactly the same as if you tried to push 800 ISO film. You can do it, but the size of th grain will be enormous.

**felixkh** · 03-30-2017, 09:19 PM

Gerard, your samples look fine to me. On my screen the noise is fine and not harsh.

howieb101 · 03-30-2017, 11:28 PM

To be fair to the K1 you should also downsize images to the resolution of the K5. Once you do that the K1 should be a very clear winner when doing high iso shots. People keep comparing at native resolution which is biased in favour of the K5.

Anyway, if people truly believe the K5 is better than the K1 at high iso, good on them. They can save a stack of cash.

texandrews · 03-31-2017, 02:16 AM

I have been using my K-1 at work hand held for quick documentation of quick museum installation shots involving some action, so a low shutter speed is not an option, and most everything needs to be in focus, so smaller stops as well. Due to the lighting and the nature of some of the scenes/work, it's also low-light-ish. Mostly shooting iso 1600-6400, and underexposed there to boot but multiple stops. Basically a torture test. The K-1 has performed well, but there are no miracles. The shots are acceptable for the purpose, and spank any phone shots. My Z is far better recovery wise. And it does seem like some shots work better than others.

Occasionally I'll add a little light and that helps a bit ( and I need to continue to work on a quick and portable non-flash battery powered lighting option/s).

matty_w73 · 02-20-2018, 06:54 PM

I´m having trouble with high noise levels at relatively low ISO on the k1 as well. It is exactly the same as my k-S2 but i thought it would far out-perform the K-S2. Is it possible ive got a bad copy of the camera (it is the same with various lenses) Here is a photo taken @ ISO3200.

Class A · 02-20-2018, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by matty_w73

It is exactly the same as my k-S2 but i thought it would far out-perform the K-S2.

You are probably not making a fair comparison; you cannot zoom in to 100% on both images and look at the pixel noise. The K-1 would give you more magnification and hence more noise.

See the post by howieb101.

normhead · 02-20-2018, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by matty_w73

I´m having trouble with high noise levels at relatively low ISO on the k1 as well. It is exactly the same as my k-S2 but i thought it would far out-perform the K-S2. Is it possible ive got a bad copy of the camera (it is the same with various lenses) Here is a photo taken @ ISO3200.

Where is the photo taken at 3200 with your K-S2. We need to see that they are the same.

Part of the issue I see with the above photo is the front person's face is in shadow at high ISO. Shooting at 3200 ISO will reduce the Dynamic Range available, so you've probably exceeded the cameras DR. Between the daylight at the back and the direct light on the white plate, you're exceeded the capability of the camera at that ISO.meaning since the bright spots are clean, it couldn't do the same with the shadows. You could have totally saved this image using fill flash. And honestly, for the type of shot it is, that much noise is acceptable. It's a candid shot in bad light.

Just as a general rule, if you have back lighting, over-expose. Noise is the least of your problems.

**PPPPPP42** · 02-20-2018, 07:44 PM

I’m viewing it on an iPad so it could just be me but it looks kinda fuzzy. I assume there wasn’t a tripod set up in the restaurant and 1/25 is getting into the really steady hands only range for hand holding it, so maybe an effect of the shake reduction. Not 100% sure on the depth of field at f5.6 either. Stuff outside seems as in focus as anything which is odd even for 24mm.

02-20-2018, 07:31 PM	#44
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by matty_w73 I´m having trouble with high noise levels at relatively low ISO on the k1 as well. It is exactly the same as my k-S2 but i thought it would far out-perform the K-S2. Is it possible ive got a bad copy of the camera (it is the same with various lenses) Here is a photo taken @ ISO3200. Where is the photo taken at 3200 with your K-S2. We need to see that they are the same. Part of the issue I see with the above photo is the front person's face is in shadow at high ISO. Shooting at 3200 ISO will reduce the Dynamic Range available, so you've probably exceeded the cameras DR. Between the daylight at the back and the direct light on the white plate, you're exceeded the capability of the camera at that ISO.meaning since the bright spots are clean, it couldn't do the same with the shadows. You could have totally saved this image using fill flash. And honestly, for the type of shot it is, that much noise is acceptable. It's a candid shot in bad light. Just as a general rule, if you have back lighting, over-expose. Noise is the least of your problems. Last edited by normhead; 02-21-2018 at 06:53 PM.

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09-10-2016, 04:23 PM	#31
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by MJKoski @banep: the first post in this thread were either edited or deleted. It was kind of nasty start. Yes, two posts were very quickly removed from the thread Steve

09-10-2016, 04:28 PM	#32
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by gerardbaron Photos Taken with Live View No corrections Look at the first left bud Are these crops or down-sampled? They all look fine on my end. Steve

09-10-2016, 04:59 PM - 2 Likes	#33
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	Originally posted by gaweidert Might as well call me a troll too because my K5 and K5-IIs both kill my K1 regarding noise. I can almost agree with you on that....I think my K5IIs was at least equal to the K, maybe not better but at least as good. The difference for me is low light focusing...the K1 shines in that area..the K5IIs, well, not so good. I have some great high ISO shots with both cameras....noise is not as important to me as it may be for some, but fast and sure focus even in low light is very important. The K1 pleases me superbly! Originally posted by mee two accusations trolling and then a postulation the OP could be on drugs.. some of you are too much with the personal attacks.. and that is what you start with... first response to the OP. incredible. Agree...we are better than that and should act accordingly. The OP does not fit the mold of a troller, and we should do some "troller research" before we start with the labels. K1- Shot in very low light ISO 12800 1/80 handheld (Great SR!) f 7.1 @ 240mm...Bigma 50-500 My own experience tells me the noise depends on many factors, not just a few. Some are fine, others not. It was the same with my K5IIs. If the OP needs help,some of you with better knowledge concentrate on helping him, not cutting him down...please! Regards!

09-10-2016, 05:47 PM	#34
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	I always start at f/5.6. It's an old high school habit, but it works for me. I start at ISO 200 or 400. I can hand hold down to 1/30 without creating motion blur. If the camera wants a shutter speed below 1/30, on K-1 I can raise ISO using the third wheel until I'm comfortable. With K-01 (same sensor as K-5) I have to shoot in TAv or take my eye out of shooting position to raise ISO. Frequently in these shots, if I refuse to open the aperture, I will have underexposed, which I'd rather do than clip highlights. I sometimes go ahead, knowing I can adjust curves in post. I use PDCU to process RAWs sometimes, or PSE, and processing RAW's I rarely have noise when I raise shadows - but if I try to do a quick and dirty cleanup of a camera jpeg it is an entirely different story - they just aren't as malleable as DNG's. My K-1 files are significantly more flexible than my K-01 files though. I suggest it much more likely the OP has some sort of settings or workflow issue than a faulty sensor, but whatever the case unless 1/200 f/8 is a full manual setting there shouldn't be appreciable noise. Last edited by monochrome; 09-10-2016 at 06:00 PM.

09-10-2016, 07:27 PM	#36
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,275	Originally posted by gerardbaron Thanks all of you for your tips. Thanks Michaela2 for the tips on noise reduction Here is the final product with a 3200 ISO picture NOT CROP. Please feel free to give your advice. Every day I learn from Pentaxforum. Nice shot! It's hard to make any detailed critique on a web size shot, but it looks sharp enough and noise is not intrusive. A uniform background like that will tend to accentuate any noise anyway. Do you have the option of adding some extraneous light and shooting at bas ISO?

03-27-2017, 05:36 AM	#37
stevebarnes Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Australia Posts: 31	Originally posted by calsan Must have left the zero off the model number - K10d? Still, even that gets good shots at iso 800. I shot with my K-10D for years and loved it. Photos from this camera are in stock galleries. Came out really well. My K3 is better still, although with Tamron 70-200 f/2.8 hunts a bit. My K-1 is wonderful.

03-27-2017, 06:25 AM	#38
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	A couple of high ISO images for you.... Both shot at 3200 ISO IN this one I even have rescued shadow detail on the otters chest, still no noise. You can say whatever you want about a K-5 being able to do this. My wife has a K-5 which she still uses every day. My advice, if you believe that, go out with the two cameras and shoot some side by side images using the same settings. Post those, and then we can decide if your K-1 needs servicing. Just because you are shooting high ISO doesn't mean you can under-expose your image. What I see in your images is large parts of the image that are grossly under-exposed. IN High ISO work, that will lead to emphasized noise because of the amplification required to try and make it look normal. Shooting high ISO means you need more precise control of exposure. and because of the reduced dynamic range, you need to keep the left hand side of your histogram a little bit to the right of the chart border to create some shadow rescue room. It's exactly the same as if you tried to push 800 ISO film. You can do it, but the size of th grain will be enormous.

03-30-2017, 09:19 PM	#39
felixkh Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,201	Gerard, your samples look fine to me. On my screen the noise is fine and not harsh.

03-30-2017, 11:28 PM	#40
howieb101 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 594	To be fair to the K1 you should also downsize images to the resolution of the K5. Once you do that the K1 should be a very clear winner when doing high iso shots. People keep comparing at native resolution which is biased in favour of the K5. Anyway, if people truly believe the K5 is better than the K1 at high iso, good on them. They can save a stack of cash.

03-31-2017, 02:16 AM	#41
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,396	I have been using my K-1 at work hand held for quick documentation of quick museum installation shots involving some action, so a low shutter speed is not an option, and most everything needs to be in focus, so smaller stops as well. Due to the lighting and the nature of some of the scenes/work, it's also low-light-ish. Mostly shooting iso 1600-6400, and underexposed there to boot but multiple stops. Basically a torture test. The K-1 has performed well, but there are no miracles. The shots are acceptable for the purpose, and spank any phone shots. My Z is far better recovery wise. And it does seem like some shots work better than others. Occasionally I'll add a little light and that helps a bit ( and I need to continue to work on a quick and portable non-flash battery powered lighting option/s).

02-20-2018, 07:31 PM	#43
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by matty_w73 It is exactly the same as my k-S2 but i thought it would far out-perform the K-S2. You are probably not making a fair comparison; you cannot zoom in to 100% on both images and look at the pixel noise. The K-1 would give you more magnification and hence more noise. See the post by howieb101.

02-20-2018, 07:44 PM	#45
PPPPPP42 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Wisconsin Photos: Albums Posts: 947	I’m viewing it on an iPad so it could just be me but it looks kinda fuzzy. I assume there wasn’t a tripod set up in the restaurant and 1/25 is getting into the really steady hands only range for hand holding it, so maybe an effect of the shake reduction. Not 100% sure on the depth of field at f5.6 either. Stuff outside seems as in focus as anything which is odd even for 24mm.