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02-15-2017, 12:47 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by narual Quote
Hasn't every Pentax since the spotmatic had built in circuitry to regulate the voltage? I don't think your electric motor comparison works here.
Up to a point.
The regulation circuitry is only good for what it has built to work with, see further detail in the link I provided above.

02-15-2017, 02:44 AM   #17
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Actually, imho, batteries can make a very large difference. But I have no idea if they do in this case. "Batteries" have an internal resistance. As current increases the voltage that appears across the poles decreases, the higher the internal resistance, the greater the voltage drop. That's why banging that bigger battery in your car may well make the starter spin faster.

While lower internal resistance is not directly related to larger capacity, it often follows. So when load on the battery gets high, shutter activation, focus shift, flash charging, it is perfectly possible that a larger capacity battery MAY provide a higher voltage.

Before anyone shoots me, I make no claim to know if that is actually happening in this case. I also make no judgment on the actual capacity of the batteries mentioned as opposed to their rated capacity.

02-15-2017, 08:48 AM   #18
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Who dares to be the first to try overclocking their K-1?
02-15-2017, 10:53 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by DougieD Quote
It is inefficient, but in the AC powered devices the OP is referring to, that's how they did things back then. I restore vintage amplifiers and receivers professionally. In retrospect, the energy they "wasted" is almost sinful. That's just the way they rolled. Some receivers use about 15 Watts worth of incandescent lamps just to light up the AM/FM dial plate. They look awfully good, though!
Agreed, Back in the early days of electronics people did not care how much energy they wasted. Energy was cheap, and the environment was not an issue. All electronic devices created heat. In some cases so much heat that it would become unbearable to stay in the same room with these electronic devices, without a special air-conditioning system. But today, people care about the environment. Global warming is a big issue. An energy cost have gone up considerably. every electronic device will create heat, it is the nature of the beast. Reducing this heat is the goal. We have gone from a lightbulb that waste as much as 90 - 95% of the energy in heat, To one that waste only 5 - 10% in heat. Times have changed. And considering how warm it is, Here in Tn, US, in the middle of February, we need to reduce as much heat as possible.

02-15-2017, 11:30 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by RJH Quote
Actually, imho, batteries can make a very large difference. But I have no idea if they do in this case. "Batteries" have an internal resistance. As current increases the voltage that appears across the poles decreases, the higher the internal resistance, the greater the voltage drop. That's why banging that bigger battery in your car may well make the starter spin faster.

While lower internal resistance is not directly related to larger capacity, it often follows. So when load on the battery gets high, shutter activation, focus shift, flash charging, it is perfectly possible that a larger capacity battery MAY provide a higher voltage.

Before anyone shoots me, I make no claim to know if that is actually happening in this case. I also make no judgment on the actual capacity of the batteries mentioned as opposed to their rated capacity.
I know what you mean... in my earlier post where I mentioned model aviation, fixed wing and helli alike, use ESC's, and depending on the load (point the nose of the plane up, motor draws more power and RPMs start to drop) the ESC will regulate how hard it tries to maintain the set RPM, also known as gain. Also, in case of a prop strike, the ESC can shut the whole thing down. These regulations are done as a percentage of set rpm, so you can set for 1000rpm and request a 10% gain to maintain RPM , and in a dive, a similar or lower rpm shift, say 5%, to give a breaking effect. At any rate, all that I was trying (and I did a poor job of saying it) was to say is if there are gains and limits set within the motors and actuators, could you be seeing a performance shift when a stiffer battery is installed that doesn't back off as much or is within set tolerances? I have seen a big difference in performance with the model planes depending on the battery installed, regardless of the ESC settings being unchanged. I know most of my electronics background is old school, (back in the days of silver and gold striped resistors of 5% and 10% accuracy being top notch) and that the newer equipment and parts are made to tighter tolerances, but wasn't sure what the envelope was.

Eric
02-15-2017, 11:40 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by RJH Quote
Actually, imho, batteries can make a very large difference. But I have no idea if they do in this case. "Batteries" have an internal resistance. As current increases the voltage that appears across the poles decreases, the higher the internal resistance, the greater the voltage drop. That's why banging that bigger battery in your car may well make the starter spin faster.

While lower internal resistance is not directly related to larger capacity, it often follows. So when load on the battery gets high, shutter activation, focus shift, flash charging, it is perfectly possible that a larger capacity battery MAY provide a higher voltage.

Before anyone shoots me, I make no claim to know if that is actually happening in this case. I also make no judgment on the actual capacity of the batteries mentioned as opposed to their rated capacity.
A automotive starter is not a good comparison with this device. It does not use a regulated power supply. It is an electrical device, Not an electronic device. As I mentioned before, today's electronic devices are highly regulated and use most of the energy in the batteries. The internal resistance of the battery increases as it is discharged and only becomes a problem when it is discharged to about 20% of It's capacity or so. But this number depends on the current needed to operate that device. some devices will not be affected until the battery is nearly depleted. Your cell phone is a good example of this. You may not have a problem making a call even if the battery is low, but at some point your phone just will not work. Other devices might give you a warning before any major problems develop. In the case of a camera, timing is everything. The movement of the mirror and shutter, Which are motor devices, has to work in unison with the processor/sensor. In order for this to happen, everything has to have a constant voltage/current. This means they need a regulated voltage. Current limiting is controlled by the specific device in question. even if you're operating the camera from a AC power source, because of the timing requirements of the camera everything needs to operate the same, every time. A consistent operation, will give you consistent results in your photos. This was a known issue with older, cheaper film cameras. inconsistent results is a big problem. Consistency is key to good results, without it, The cameras useless.
02-15-2017, 12:27 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
I know what you mean... in my earlier post where I mentioned model aviation, fixed wing and helli alike, use ESC's, and depending on the load (point the nose of the plane up, motor draws more power and RPMs start to drop) the ESC will regulate how hard it tries to maintain the set RPM, also known as gain. Also, in case of a prop strike, the ESC can shut the whole thing down. These regulations are done as a percentage of set rpm, so you can set for 1000rpm and request a 10% gain to maintain RPM , and in a dive, a similar or lower rpm shift, say 5%, to give a breaking effect. At any rate, all that I was trying (and I did a poor job of saying it) was to say is if there are gains and limits set within the motors and actuators, could you be seeing a performance shift when a stiffer battery is installed that doesn't back off as much or is within set tolerances? I have seen a big difference in performance with the model planes depending on the battery installed, regardless of the ESC settings being unchanged. I know most of my electronics background is old school, (back in the days of silver and gold striped resistors of 5% and 10% accuracy being top notch) and that the newer equipment and parts are made to tighter tolerances, but wasn't sure what the envelope was.

Eric
A camera is not an electric motor. Granted, it has an electric motor inside, but the whole thing is a little bit more complicated, expensive and fragile.
I think the goal should be of operating it within tolerances, supplying it with the optimal current and tension, and not trying to over-rev it like a tuner car.

02-15-2017, 12:41 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
A camera is not an electric motor. Granted, it has an electric motor inside, but the whole thing is a little bit more complicated, expensive and fragile.
I think the goal should be of operating it within tolerances, supplying it with the optimal current and tension, and not trying to over-rev it like a tuner car.
Well, PC's are made for over clocking... Intel board avoided it for years, but even Intel supported overclocking before the stopped doing desktop board and went back to doing server boards only...

OK OK... In the OP I was just asking because I perceived a noticable difference. I swear I wasn't LOOKING for it, I just swapped batteries in the middle of a shoot and with no expectations just went "whoa, this feels sporty all of a sudden" and only then did I try and backwards engineer it to the fact that I had just put in a new Wasabi battery.

Maybe my old K-5 batteries are tired, but I really didn't notice any difference between my old K-5 batteries and the new battery that came with the K-1, except that I wasn't getting as many shots out of the old K-5 batteries.

So that is full disclosure on this thing. At any rate, if nothing else, the Wasabi's sure do work well for the price.
Eric
02-15-2017, 01:29 PM - 2 Likes   #24
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The k-1 is not an "electronic device", it is a combination of many parts - a lot of them electromechanical.

A batteries internal resistance determines how much current it can supply, instantaneously, no matter what the charge state. It might help to imagine this:

Short out an aa battery with a very thick wire. Let's say the wire has a resistance of a few micro ohms, the battery is charged to 1.5V, ohms law would tell us that several hundred amps will flow. Luckily for the fingers we used to hold the wire they won't. Why not? We neglected to enter the internal resistance of three battery into the equation.

Where very high loads are present, the internal resistance of the battery is the limiting factor - always. The comparison with a starter motor is fair. Granted, the starter motor is huge in comparison to the af motor or the actuators for the mirror and shutter, but then an auto battery is huge in comparison to a camera battery. The point is that the underlying principles are the same.

The argument that we shouldn't be trying to push the camera beyond its design limits seems to me to be spurious. Given that the 3rd party battery has the same voltage as the original, then what we are imagining is the able to maintain that voltage better. The device will simply be able maintain its ability to at its best even while being asked to do several things at once.

It may help you consider this, do you worry about blowing up your flash because you plug in an auxiliary battery pack? No you don't. You have simply provided it with a battery with a lower internal resistance that will cut recharge times dramatically.

Well done to the OP, even if you imagined the effect you have started an interesting discussion!

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