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03-06-2017, 02:24 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Always interesting when people tell me what I said.

For those of us who have ben around for years, and have seen the flops of the high resolution freaks, who thought they had to have more resolution, and compared images etc. the difference between a 645z and the Fuji is ridiculously small. It might be impressive to newbs.

We have seen tests where people couldn't tell the difference between prints made with a K-5 and prints made with a D800. In those images,pixel peeping there was detail on the D800 pixel peeper that wasn't even visible on the K-5 images. On the D800 pixel peeper you could count fabric thread, on the K-5 you couldn't even see the threads. Yet those two cameras in many instances produced identical out put. That was a big difference that made no difference. What you are pointing to is a fraction of that, and it will make even less difference to the output. For god sakes man, act like you've been around for a while.

What is important to people is that they can display fantastic images with what they have. Everyone from APS-c can do that. There is simply no system, print of screen, where you can display those two images 645z and Fuji, where it will be apparent which is which. Only by blowing up the image to ridiculous proportions never to be seen in real life do you see any difference at all.

Funny, when in the last 7 years coming up with three lenses is bad, but in the whole life of the company coming up with 3 lenses is good.

Why does legacy glass matter? Not everyone has unlimited funds like you appear to.
$15,000 for a camera with three available lenses..and nothing over 120mm. I wouldn't buy a Full Frame or APC with that availability of lenses. But I already have functional 55mm and 75mm legacy landscape lenses just waiting for a digital body.

So, I'm curious, do you have $15,000 CDN lying around to blow on this camera or are you just blowing smoke out your......

The ante is pretty high to get into this game.

Bottom line, if you are starting from nothing, you are young and are looking for a system to last you years with lots of time to grow into it, maybe this, and the pathetic number of lenses available works for you, the Fuji system might be a go. But I would never advise anyone to buy into a system site unseen if it didn't do everything I want out the gate. That would be irresponsible.

For most of us, we just aren't in a position to drop that kind of money for that kind of system. Especially since for my purposes, it would be no better than my K-3 and lot more limited for a lot more money. The three less 32mm to 120mm, about the same as one lens, the 28-105 on my K-1. That's ridiculous. IN most cases, $8000 CDN instead of $500 CDN to do the same thing.

But if I can ever find a 645D or 645z at a bargain price, I'll buy one, just to dabble with.
Well said Norm. Pentax has always represented good value. And I certainly don't have $15,000 to spend.

03-06-2017, 02:25 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
At least GFX surfaced with 3 Fuji brand lenses. Not 3 rebranded bubblegum Tamrons. After a year of K-1 we have one new Pentax lens on the near horizon. Habbelsad H-lens adapter by Fuji is nothing to sneeze at either - the glass is superb.
Ya, why aren't you posting any pictures then?

Listen, I'll take you seriously, when you buy the camera and show us what it can do. Until then it's just a pipe dream.

Or maybe one link to a guy who is actually using one that he bought, not a review copy. I'm willing to take folks talking about this camera seriously, if (and only if) they own one.

I really don't like to waste time on guys who are just repeating industry hype.

Oh and I was exactly the same with the 645z, some early adopters posted some images that were just mind boggling. The images on Imagine Resources are something less than that. Mind you, since it was done by the 645z a couple years ago, this camera is going to have to really blow everything out of the water to make an impression.

---------- Post added 03-06-17 at 04:41 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
Sure, there is already a pile of old Pentax lenses out there but is it enough to lure in new users from competitors? I doubt it. Having hard time to understand the vision behind K-1.
Back when the K-5 had the best APS-c IQ on the planet, it didn't lure many new users from competitors. Most people vastly underestimate who easy that is to do. However, if you check the newcomers pages, the K-1 already has lured some users from competitors.

The target market for the Fuji camera is Sony A7rII users who are used to the mirrorless concept and want 645z resolution etc. Probably not 645z users. All this smoke and mirrors about no Pentax lenses is too diminish the facts, which are, Pentax 645 (and K-1) users have lots of choice in native AF lenses and a whole host of legacy lenses, and Fuji has a choice of 3 which is pathetic. All the whining about modern glass , new lenses blah blah blah doesn't change that fact.

If you're having a hard time with the concept of a K-1 there, you might have to broaden your intellectual horizons a bit.

The fact is, you're selling this camera, and no one is buying.

Last edited by normhead; 03-06-2017 at 02:48 PM.
03-06-2017, 03:14 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Fuji has a choice
OF ten different lens mounts,How many lens mount choices does P 645/FF have?




QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
broaden your intellectual horizons
During calender year 2017, there will be 5 or 6 native lens for the Fuji....from my observations Fuji usually deliver what they say.




QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The target market for the Fuji camera is Sony A7rII users who are used to the mirrorless concept and want 645z resolution etc. Probably not 645z users.
Where on earth did ya pull this one from?
03-06-2017, 03:38 PM   #34
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The PS images are lower resolution.... the images are smaller. That makes it hard to do any kind of comparison.



The PS images are kind of fuzzy, something I've noted in about 80% of my PS images, you have to be lucky to really nail one.


Last edited by normhead; 03-07-2017 at 07:35 AM.
03-07-2017, 06:54 AM   #35
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Yeah, PS images are hardly anything special with default sharpening setting used by most conversion software. Detail is there if you apply correct processing.

See here: Pentax K-1 Review - Pixel Shift in the Studio - Photography Classes in Seattle | National Park Photography Workshops | Photography Classes in Seattle | National Park Photography Workshops

And did I say GFX lenses are somehow special? I said there are 3 new lenses with the new body and more is promised (and promises kept in the past). I have read diglloyd reviews of Hasselblad H-system with lots of real life photos which show the H-lenses are very good. I expect them to work nicely adapted to GFX. And GFX sensor microlenses are optimized for corner performance versus light gathering. This means better adaptability of wide angles versus Sony A7x.

Last edited by MJKoski; 03-07-2017 at 07:01 AM.
03-07-2017, 07:04 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
Yeah, PS images are hardly anything special with default sharpening setting used by most conversion software. Detail is there if you apply correct processing.

See here: Pentax K-1 Review - Pixel Shift in the Studio - Photography Classes in Seattle | National Park Photography Workshops | Photography Classes in Seattle | National Park Photography Workshops

And did I say GFX lenses are somehow special? I said there are 3 new lenses with the new body and more is promised (and promises kept in the past). I have read diglloyd reviews of Hasselblad H-system with lots of real life photos which show the H-lenses are very good. I expect them to work nicely adapted to GFX. And GFX sensor microlenses are optimized for corner performance versus light gathering. This means better adaptability of wide angles versus Sony A7x.
Interesting, I've been processing PS files in SP first, then importing the Tiffs to LR. If LR is at least equal (or better) than PS, that'd significantly ease the workflow lol, SP has a terrible interface imo.
03-07-2017, 07:38 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
Yeah, PS images are hardly anything special with default sharpening setting used by most conversion software. Detail is there if you apply correct processing.
I have so often done comparison pixel shifted and not pixel shifted images and had the non-PS image come out the better image, I've pretty much stopped using it. There was one day, after going through the hassle of dragging a big heavy tripod every where and doing test shots, not one of the PS images was the better image. I'm retired, but even I regret having wasted that amount of time. I was doing my best to prove PS is wonderful thing, it just didn't happen. I guess it could be just my camera, but until I see someone present a convincing set of images where the PS image is better, I'm going with you'll get better images without it.

I'm not saying there aren't great pixel shift images. I'm saying I haven't seen two images taken at the same time where the PS image was better than the bayer image 100% of the time. In my experience the PS image is better maybe 20% of the time. That's just not reliable enough to be useful, IMHO. It should be better 50% of the time, just to be on an equal footing.

That being said, the base IQ of the K-1 is so outstanding, it's hard to believe I will ever need more.


Last edited by normhead; 03-07-2017 at 07:49 AM.
03-07-2017, 07:49 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have so often done comparison pixel shifted and not pixel shifted images and had the non-PS image come out the better image, I've pretty much stopped using it. There was one day, after going through the hassle of dragging a big heavy tripod every where and doing test shots, not one of the PS images was the better image. I'm retired, but even I regret having wasted that amount of time. I was doing my best to prove PS is wonderful thing, it just didn't happen. I guess it could be just my camera, but until I see someone present a convincing set of images where the PS image is better, I'm going with you'll get better images without it.

That being said, the base IQ of the K-1 is so outstanding, it's hard to believe I will ever need more.
Better in what way? Just curious. My PS images look sharper (SOOC raws) and cleaner. Since I'm shooting landscapes most of the time, I try to take the tripod with me all the time, and it proves to be a better way to shoot those every time. I sometimes forget to turn on PS, and I felt it's a bit cumbersome to go PS > LR, but after reading the article above, I'll probably use it more often personally.
03-07-2017, 08:13 AM   #39
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Mine aren't as sharp. Even those shot in doors in studio conditions.
03-07-2017, 08:13 AM   #40
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If you process like in that blog post I linked PS produces by far sharper and massively more detailed output than normal file. In some cases 100% crop can be used as final image and no one will notice anything in a web gallery. But this LR/ACR method has the limit of not being able to work with motion correction. But anyway, PS is ruined if something moves (or light changes even little between the four exposures). With luck PS produces acceptable result with long exposures.

Easy PS demo:

1) Pick sharp lens like 100mm WR Macro
2) Shoot something perfectly focused @ f/4, close range (use live view to nail focus) using PS, 2s delay, remote in use, stable tripod
3) Load the stuff into LR, crank up sharpness Amount to 75-100 range and use smallish radius like 0.7 - 0.9, masking as needed

High ranges of sharpness amount kicks in the high speed PS gear Normal exposure explodes at that setting with good lens but PS file does not. Instead, it pops the extra details there are (if there are).

Last edited by MJKoski; 03-07-2017 at 08:20 AM.
03-07-2017, 08:32 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Mine aren't as sharp. Even those shot in doors in studio conditions.
Weird, I can see massive improvement in sharpness even hand-held with an old manual Helios 44k-4 (high shutter speed in day time allowed for no tripod use in that particular case).
03-07-2017, 08:36 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
If you process like in that blog post I linked PS produces by far sharper and massively more detailed output than normal file. In some cases 100% crop can be used as final image and no one will notice anything in a web gallery. But this LR/ACR method has the limit of not being able to work with motion correction. But anyway, PS is ruined if something moves (or light changes even little between the four exposures). With luck PS produces acceptable result with long exposures.

Easy PS demo:

1) Pick sharp lens like 100mm WR Macro
2) Shoot something perfectly focused @ f/4, close range (use live view to nail focus) using PS, 2s delay, remote in use, stable tripod
3) Load the stuff into LR, crank up sharpness Amount to 75-100 range and use smallish radius like 0.7 - 0.9, masking as needed

High ranges of sharpness amount kicks in the high speed PS gear Normal exposure explodes at that setting with good lens but PS file does not. Instead, it pops the extra details there are (if there are).
Imaging Resources said the PS in their studio increased resolution about 100 lw/ph. Usually you can't see that in any kind of real world output, and you can achieve that by buying a sharper lens. When using lens charts I always look for a difference of 400 lw/ph, the difference between a K-5 and a K-3, before I even start thinking about a sensor switch. IN lenses I like to have the better lens producing 200-300 better lw/ph to be worth considering. But, I totally understand people wanting to squeeze every last little bit of resolution and colour depth etc, out of their image. For me, if the non-PS image will make a good print I'm a happy man. I'd rather save myself the grief.
03-07-2017, 08:55 AM   #43
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Try it out if you use LR, nothing to lose? And it is not only details, color rendition improves and BW photography gets another dimension - every color channel has its own exposure in PS file.
03-07-2017, 07:01 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
If you process like in that blog post I linked PS produces by far sharper and massively more detailed output than normal file. In some cases 100% crop can be used as final image and no one will notice anything in a web gallery. But this LR/ACR method has the limit of not being able to work with motion correction. But anyway, PS is ruined if something moves (or light changes even little between the four exposures). With luck PS produces acceptable result with long exposures.

Easy PS demo:

1) Pick sharp lens like 100mm WR Macro
2) Shoot something perfectly focused @ f/4, close range (use live view to nail focus) using PS, 2s delay, remote in use, stable tripod
3) Load the stuff into LR, crank up sharpness Amount to 75-100 range and use smallish radius like 0.7 - 0.9, masking as needed

High ranges of sharpness amount kicks in the high speed PS gear Normal exposure explodes at that setting with good lens but PS file does not. Instead, it pops the extra details there are (if there are).

I've read the site before from a link on DPR Pentax forums.
Really fantastic work.

His LR workflow can now be changed to using Raw Therapee v5.
I think it works better with all the masking options than the unknown process going on in LR with PS files (and forcing it to somehow 'kick in' with the settings.
03-08-2017, 03:29 AM   #45
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Raw Therapee has the same issue as does Capture One for me - not so intuitive user interface. Worth a try I guess, this v5. Last time I used the software was in 2013, maybe it is now better.
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