How do Pentax K1 pixel shift images compare with Fuji GFX images?

heckflosse · 03-08-2017, 08:52 AM

Maybe worth to mention that you have to use the RT Pixelshift build, not the default build. You can find it here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2q9OrgyDEfPS2FpdDAtMVI1RG8

Gimbal · 03-08-2017, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by awscreo

Weird, I can see massive improvement in sharpness even hand-held with an old manual Helios 44k-4 (high shutter speed in day time allowed for no tripod use in that particular case).

Handheld, is that even possible?

awscreo · 03-08-2017, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Handheld, is that even possible?

it is, as long as the shutter speed is high enough and you don't go searching for possible tiny artifacts tat might appear)

I think this one I shot with PS just to test it hand-held.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30682087@N03/29421153046/in/dateposted-public/

Edit: it wasn't that one, it was the updated link lol. I don't think i managed to shoot PS with 1/6 shutter speed, I'm not a robot)

btnapa · 03-19-2017, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

I have a Pentax K1 and just love it.

I just saw your post. I have the K1 as well. As much as I like to go to medium format for better resolution and other advantages it offers, I do not think the Fuji is it. I will wait for the FF Pentax Z. As awesome as the Fuji is, I do not feel it outperforms my K1 by much. I am sure a lot of people will disagree with me. But for my hi-res, high DR image needs the K1 delivers with flying colors. Throw in the pixel shift and the sucker has no equal!!

pinholecam · 03-19-2017, 04:46 PM

The DPReview Comparator is up with the GFX shots and it can be compared with the K1 in pixel shift mode.

Basically, the K1 is better in this respect.

MJKoski · 03-20-2017, 02:59 AM

Yeah it is. There is no moire to mess up fine details. But those DPR examples could be even sharper if proper sharpening was used. Now I find them lacking.

Abdallah · 03-20-2017, 09:08 AM

Production cars are designed and built for there buyers needs, and the same applies to cameras, the Fuji GFX specs & cost serves someones needs, the K-1 too, but i would still choose my 645D if its between the K-1 or 645D, "one" of my reasons are my 40x30 40X60 landscape prints, the crop factor in the 645D cleans up the weak edges of the full frame 645 FA lenses which shows up at such magnifications, and would still keep using my 645D vs the Fuji GFX, i have 5 645 FA lenses 3 of them are jewels, the 120 macro, 45-85 and the 80-160 beside the 35mm and 300mm, the auto-focus system is dead on always so no need to worry about peaking beside i use small F-stops for vast landscapes, my only reservation is the preview time after shooting and system weight , for travel and light package my Nikon D800E with two F4 zooms serves the need. BTW the kinda slow 645D shooting workflow do help to produce better results similar to the impact of large format workflow.

DSLRnovice · 04-03-2017, 04:40 PM

I have downloaded the most recent official download of Raw Therapee and it will not give me the Pixel Shift option in de-mosaic. How can I get the version you are using? I could not find it anywhere.

Originally posted by pinholecam

Here's a try...

Access the pictures via selecting the directory (as any other software)
I've found that as long as the directory is not choke full of files, RT works fast, so I will split files into a few folders to keep things going fast.

For PixS files, the Demosaicing tab is where we can select the algo used (so select "pixelshift" as shown here)

I've found that leaving Motion Correction as Automatic often works very well with v5 of RT (it was less so on the v4 PixS branch of the software)
There is a Show Motion checkbox that is checked to show what the program thinks needs to be masked (ie. it will use only 1 layer for those parts)

I'm tending towards just leaving on Auto, checking that the mask is not masking off too much and thats the end of it wrt me doing any PixS actions. (because v5 on auto works well in most cases)

Selecting "Custom" opens up all the masking options.

As you can see, there are loads of options. (but I am finding less need to use them since v5)

Forum user "heckflosse" who works on the RT gave very good info on them here :
Pixel Shifted Images - Page 21 - PentaxForums.com

"Currently the 3x3 new (we should find a better name for it, I just chose this name because it was new at that time) is the way to go for motion correction in rt imho. It's the only method which allows the options 'Fill Holes', 'Blur' and 'smooth transitions'. For pixel shift images without motion it may be better to choose 'Motion correction off' and for images with very little motion you should try to disable 'check red/blue cross' to get as much details as possible"

If you have LR or can get hold of the camera profiles, it can be used by RT.
This is the tab to do it (under Color Management ) :

Similarly, LR Lens Profiles can be loaded here:

You can save all the settings as Custom Profiles, so that you load them with all the settings that you want at a click.
For Example,
I'd often use a custom profile set as "Pixel Shift -Landscape -auto" - which has the Pentax "Landscape" color profile, Pixel Shift, custom curve/sharpening/other adj

---------- Post added 04-03-2017 at 04:43 PM ----------

Originally posted by heckflosse

Maybe worth to mention that you have to use the RT Pixelshift build, not the default build. You can find it here: Update your browser to use Google Drive - Drive Help

Am I missing something? I opened PEF and DNG files that where shot with PS on in my K-1. There is no option for Pixelshift in demozaic feature.

**Rondec** · 04-04-2017, 02:50 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by DSLRnovice

I have downloaded the most recent official download of Raw Therapee and it will not give me the Pixel Shift option in de-mosaic. How can I get the version you are using? I could not find it anywhere.

---------- Post added 04-03-2017 at 04:43 PM ----------

Am I missing something? I opened PEF and DNG files that where shot with PS on in my K-1. There is no option for Pixelshift in demozaic feature.

You need to download the RT version that has pixel shift in it. On the Google Drive, I believe it is the second file from the left, the one that is labled dev in its title. The main version does not have a pixel shift in it. I have used that version for quite awhile and it seems quite stable and works very well with pixel shift.

With regard to hand holding pixel shift images (mentioned above), I wouldn't bother. The whole point of pixel shifting is that the sensor shifts a very specific (and also, very tiny) amount between images. If you are hand holding, who knows how much shifting is done between images and therefore the benefit of improved color depth has to be minimal. The benefit of pixel shifting will be significant when using a stable tripod on a still day. Anything that introduces motion will minimize the benefit.

DSLRnovice · 04-04-2017, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

You need to download the RT version that has pixel shift in it. On the Google Drive, I believe it is the second file from the left, the one that is labled dev in its title. The main version does not have a pixel shift in it. I have used that version for quite awhile and it seems quite stable and works very well with pixel shift.

.

Thanks for pointing out which file to download. Now if I could find the XP version for PS.

normhead · 04-04-2017, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

You need to download the RT version that has pixel shift in it. On the Google Drive, I believe it is the second file from the left, the one that is labled dev in its title. The main version does not have a pixel shift in it. I have used that version for quite awhile and it seems quite stable and works very well with pixel shift.

With regard to hand holding pixel shift images (mentioned above), I wouldn't bother. The whole point of pixel shifting is that the sensor shifts a very specific (and also, very tiny) amount between images. If you are hand holding, who knows how much shifting is done between images and therefore the benefit of improved color depth has to be minimal. The benefit of pixel shifting will be significant when using a stable tripod on a still day. Anything that introduces motion will minimize the benefit.

ON days when there is any movement at all, it's not just that, it's that the Pixel Shifted images are softer. I've probably done 50 comparison images, and even using my lighter tripods, pixel shift images are soft. I have to get out the nice heavy one, and it has to be completely still. Using my lighter tripods, only 20% of the time is the Pixel Shift image better. Using my heaviest tripod in a wind and vibration free environment pixel shift is better 100% of the time. It takes some serious discipline to get the most out of Pixel Shift.

I hate hiking with a big tripod, but with my K-1, it goes with me.

**gaweidert** · 04-04-2017, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by normhead

ON days when there is any movement at all, it's not just that, it's that the Pixel Shifted images are softer. I've probably done 50 comparison images, and even using my lighter tripods, pixel shift images are soft. I have to get out the nice heavy one, and it has to be completely still. Using my lighter tripods, only 20% of the time is the Pixel Shift image better. Using my heaviest tripod in a wind and vibration free environment pixel shift is better 100% of the time. It takes some serious discipline to get the most out of Pixel Shift.

I hate hiking with a big tripod, but with my K-1, it goes with me.

\

Norm. You have dogs! They love to carry and pull things. Start training them now for the summer.

normhead · 04-04-2017, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by gaweidert

\

Norm. You have dogs! They love to carry and pull things. Start training them now for the summer.

My dogs love to swim. Any tripod carried by my dogs is likely to end up full of water.

awscreo · 04-04-2017, 07:59 AM

Pretty sure I was able to shoot PS images hand held before (I think I've posted the link somewhere in another thread). I only have a aluminum tripod, more of a compact style, pretty light. I got pin sharp images on that, dunno how it'd compare to heavier better brand one.

teiki arii · 04-04-2017, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

The benefit of pixel shifting will be significant when using a stable tripod on a still day. Anything that introduces motion will minimize the benefit.

For sure. The more you have introduced motion, bigger is the mask of motion, the less you benefit of Pixel Shift...

Originally posted by normhead

Using my heaviest tripod in a wind and vibration free environment pixel shift is better 100% of the time. It takes some serious discipline to get the most out of Pixel Shift.

I shoul say, I have even better results with remote control for a perfect static scene...

04-03-2017, 04:40 PM	#53
DSLRnovice Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 192	How do I find the correct build for PS? I have downloaded the most recent official download of Raw Therapee and it will not give me the Pixel Shift option in de-mosaic. How can I get the version you are using? I could not find it anywhere. Originally posted by pinholecam Here's a try... Access the pictures via selecting the directory (as any other software) I've found that as long as the directory is not choke full of files, RT works fast, so I will split files into a few folders to keep things going fast. For PixS files, the Demosaicing tab is where we can select the algo used (so select "pixelshift" as shown here) I've found that leaving Motion Correction as Automatic often works very well with v5 of RT (it was less so on the v4 PixS branch of the software) There is a Show Motion checkbox that is checked to show what the program thinks needs to be masked (ie. it will use only 1 layer for those parts) I'm tending towards just leaving on Auto, checking that the mask is not masking off too much and thats the end of it wrt me doing any PixS actions. (because v5 on auto works well in most cases) Selecting "Custom" opens up all the masking options. As you can see, there are loads of options. (but I am finding less need to use them since v5) Forum user "*heckflosse" who works on the RT gave very good info on them here : Pixel Shifted Images - Page 21 - PentaxForums.com "Currently the 3x3 new (we should find a better name for it, I just chose this name because it was new at that time) is the way to go for motion correction in rt imho. It's the only method which allows the options 'Fill Holes', 'Blur' and 'smooth transitions'. For pixel shift images without motion it may be better to choose 'Motion correction off' and for images with very little motion you should try to disable 'check red/blue cross' to get as much details as possible" If you have LR or can get hold of the camera profiles, it can be used by RT. This is the tab to do it (under Color Management* ) : Similarly, LR Lens Profiles can be loaded here: You can save all the settings as Custom Profiles, so that you load them with all the settings that you want at a click. For Example, I'd often use a custom profile set as "Pixel Shift -Landscape -auto" - which has the Pentax "Landscape" color profile, Pixel Shift, custom curve/sharpening/other adj ---------- Post added 04-03-2017 at 04:43 PM ---------- Originally posted by heckflosse Maybe worth to mention that you have to use the RT Pixelshift build, not the default build. You can find it here: Update your browser to use Google Drive - Drive Help Am I missing something? I opened PEF and DNG files that where shot with PS on in my K-1. There is no option for Pixelshift in demozaic feature.

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03-08-2017, 08:52 AM	#46
heckflosse Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 171	Maybe worth to mention that you have to use the RT Pixelshift build, not the default build. You can find it here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2q9OrgyDEfPS2FpdDAtMVI1RG8

03-08-2017, 10:14 AM	#47
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by awscreo Weird, I can see massive improvement in sharpness even hand-held with an old manual Helios 44k-4 (high shutter speed in day time allowed for no tripod use in that particular case). Handheld, is that even possible?

03-08-2017, 11:26 AM	#48
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Originally posted by Gimbal Handheld, is that even possible? it is, as long as the shutter speed is high enough and you don't go searching for possible tiny artifacts tat might appear) I think this one I shot with PS just to test it hand-held. https://www.flickr.com/photos/30682087@N03/29421153046/in/dateposted-public/ Edit: it wasn't that one, it was the updated link lol. I don't think i managed to shoot PS with 1/6 shutter speed, I'm not a robot)

03-19-2017, 02:57 PM	#49
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,614	Originally posted by Fenwoodian I have a Pentax K1 and just love it. I just saw your post. I have the K1 as well. As much as I like to go to medium format for better resolution and other advantages it offers, I do not think the Fuji is it. I will wait for the FF Pentax Z. As awesome as the Fuji is, I do not feel it outperforms my K1 by much. I am sure a lot of people will disagree with me. But for my hi-res, high DR image needs the K1 delivers with flying colors. Throw in the pixel shift and the sucker has no equal!!

03-19-2017, 04:46 PM	#50
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,706	The DPReview Comparator is up with the GFX shots and it can be compared with the K1 in pixel shift mode. Basically, the K1 is better in this respect.

03-20-2017, 02:59 AM	#51
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	Yeah it is. There is no moire to mess up fine details. But those DPR examples could be even sharper if proper sharpening was used. Now I find them lacking.

03-20-2017, 09:08 AM	#52
Abdallah New Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 20	Production cars are designed and built for there buyers needs, and the same applies to cameras, the Fuji GFX specs & cost serves someones needs, the K-1 too, but i would still choose my 645D if its between the K-1 or 645D, "one" of my reasons are my 40x30 40X60 landscape prints, the crop factor in the 645D cleans up the weak edges of the full frame 645 FA lenses which shows up at such magnifications, and would still keep using my 645D vs the Fuji GFX, i have 5 645 FA lenses 3 of them are jewels, the 120 macro, 45-85 and the 80-160 beside the 35mm and 300mm, the auto-focus system is dead on always so no need to worry about peaking beside i use small F-stops for vast landscapes, my only reservation is the preview time after shooting and system weight , for travel and light package my Nikon D800E with two F4 zooms serves the need. BTW the kinda slow 645D shooting workflow do help to produce better results similar to the impact of large format workflow.

04-04-2017, 02:50 AM - 1 Like	#54
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by DSLRnovice I have downloaded the most recent official download of Raw Therapee and it will not give me the Pixel Shift option in de-mosaic. How can I get the version you are using? I could not find it anywhere. ---------- Post added 04-03-2017 at 04:43 PM ---------- Am I missing something? I opened PEF and DNG files that where shot with PS on in my K-1. There is no option for Pixelshift in demozaic feature. You need to download the RT version that has pixel shift in it. On the Google Drive, I believe it is the second file from the left, the one that is labled dev in its title. The main version does not have a pixel shift in it. I have used that version for quite awhile and it seems quite stable and works very well with pixel shift. With regard to hand holding pixel shift images (mentioned above), I wouldn't bother. The whole point of pixel shifting is that the sensor shifts a very specific (and also, very tiny) amount between images. If you are hand holding, who knows how much shifting is done between images and therefore the benefit of improved color depth has to be minimal. The benefit of pixel shifting will be significant when using a stable tripod on a still day. Anything that introduces motion will minimize the benefit.

04-04-2017, 05:42 AM	#55
DSLRnovice Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 192	Originally posted by Rondec You need to download the RT version that has pixel shift in it. On the Google Drive, I believe it is the second file from the left, the one that is labled dev in its title. The main version does not have a pixel shift in it. I have used that version for quite awhile and it seems quite stable and works very well with pixel shift. . Thanks for pointing out which file to download. Now if I could find the XP version for PS.

04-04-2017, 06:41 AM	#56
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,448	Originally posted by Rondec You need to download the RT version that has pixel shift in it. On the Google Drive, I believe it is the second file from the left, the one that is labled dev in its title. The main version does not have a pixel shift in it. I have used that version for quite awhile and it seems quite stable and works very well with pixel shift. With regard to hand holding pixel shift images (mentioned above), I wouldn't bother. The whole point of pixel shifting is that the sensor shifts a very specific (and also, very tiny) amount between images. If you are hand holding, who knows how much shifting is done between images and therefore the benefit of improved color depth has to be minimal. The benefit of pixel shifting will be significant when using a stable tripod on a still day. Anything that introduces motion will minimize the benefit. ON days when there is any movement at all, it's not just that, it's that the Pixel Shifted images are softer. I've probably done 50 comparison images, and even using my lighter tripods, pixel shift images are soft. I have to get out the nice heavy one, and it has to be completely still. Using my lighter tripods, only 20% of the time is the Pixel Shift image better. Using my heaviest tripod in a wind and vibration free environment pixel shift is better 100% of the time. It takes some serious discipline to get the most out of Pixel Shift. I hate hiking with a big tripod, but with my K-1, it goes with me.

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04-04-2017, 07:24 AM	#57
gaweidert Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,325	Originally posted by normhead ON days when there is any movement at all, it's not just that, it's that the Pixel Shifted images are softer. I've probably done 50 comparison images, and even using my lighter tripods, pixel shift images are soft. I have to get out the nice heavy one, and it has to be completely still. Using my lighter tripods, only 20% of the time is the Pixel Shift image better. Using my heaviest tripod in a wind and vibration free environment pixel shift is better 100% of the time. It takes some serious discipline to get the most out of Pixel Shift. I hate hiking with a big tripod, but with my K-1, it goes with me. \ Norm. You have dogs! They love to carry and pull things. Start training them now for the summer.

04-04-2017, 07:26 AM	#58
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,448	Originally posted by gaweidert \ Norm. You have dogs! They love to carry and pull things. Start training them now for the summer. My dogs love to swim. Any tripod carried by my dogs is likely to end up full of water.

04-04-2017, 07:59 AM	#59
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Pretty sure I was able to shoot PS images hand held before (I think I've posted the link somewhere in another thread). I only have a aluminum tripod, more of a compact style, pretty light. I got pin sharp images on that, dunno how it'd compare to heavier better brand one.

04-04-2017, 08:45 AM	#60
teiki arii Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 689	Originally posted by Rondec The benefit of pixel shifting will be significant when using a stable tripod on a still day. Anything that introduces motion will minimize the benefit. For sure. The more you have introduced motion, bigger is the mask of motion, the less you benefit of Pixel Shift... Originally posted by normhead Using my heaviest tripod in a wind and vibration free environment pixel shift is better 100% of the time. It takes some serious discipline to get the most out of Pixel Shift. I shoul say, I have even better results with remote control for a perfect static scene...