Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-22-2017, 10:06 PM   #16
Veteran Member
JimmyDranox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ploiesti, Romania
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,630
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote

Last but not least... we were reviewing a stream of photos taken with 5D IV, sorry but I was impressed by how many photos were out of focus... From reading Pentax forum, I was thinking that Pentax AF was junk compared to Canon. How did people come to this conclusion? In the future, I think I should be more careful when reading online opinions, it's much better to evaluation ourselves by trying real cameras in the real world. Am I missing something?
Maybe, you miss Canon long lenses. I had several Pentax cameras, two Canon, and a lot of lenses of all sorts for both systems. Including Tamron and Sigma lenses for both systems. Tamron and Sigma are making good, sharp lenses, especially with regard to the price, but they are more prone to miss focus than genuine Pentax or Canon lenses. Much more.

About ergonomics of Canon, you are right. It's a pain. But after a while, you get used to it. And if you had big hands, Canon fits better than Pentax. At least for me.

Construction is better at Pentax.

Finally, what realy matters, at least for me. The sensor. Sony sensor are better than Canon, in the first year of use, or so. After two years, I had to remember that Sony is a ''consumer electronic manufacturer''. At least in my last Pentax K5 IIs, the noise became huge, clearly visible, even at ISO 250, much worst than my 6 years old Canon 60D, which is clean at ISO 400. And when the noise appears, it is less disturbing in Canon, because is grainy, comparing with the speckled noise of Pentax.

Yes, I know, if you resize the picture, ... if, and maybe.... And yes, dynamic range. What is better, a very noisy camera with a better dynamic range, or the other way around?

So, I would love a Pentax camera with a Canon sensor inside. And with both stabilizing systems, IBIS for general lenses, and OS for long lenses. Would be a dream.


Last edited by JimmyDranox; 04-22-2017 at 10:20 PM.
04-22-2017, 10:17 PM   #17
Pentaxian
bkpix's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Creswell, Oregon
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 389
QuoteOriginally posted by Brooke Meyer Quote
"people at receptions"? What sort of receptions give you problems? I'm astonished you find that an issue. Works okay for me even when I'm holding the camera over my head as far as I can reach.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brooke Meyer Quote
"people at receptions"? What sort of receptions give you problems? I'm astonished you find that an issue. Works okay for me even when I'm holding the camera over my head as far as I can reach.
The problem I've had with Pentax AF at events is slow focus when taking fairly closeup photos of people and trying to capture fleeting expressions. Pentax is slow enough at acquiring focus that I often miss the photo; with Canon I get it. Either camera would do fine for holding overhead and shooting a large group as in the example photo. The K-3 is better at this than the K-5IIs, but neither is as nimble as the 6D. I haven't spent enough time with the K-1 to understand its AF system. From reading here and on DPR, I gather it takes a bit more practice, but my results so far have been disappointing. Image quality is splendid, though, and I may buy one anyway.
04-22-2017, 10:26 PM   #18
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,478
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
And with both stabilizing systems, IBIS for general lenses, and OS for long lenses. Would be a dream.
Yes, I'm with you. IBIS is good to have for all lenses but is not the best for long lenses. As I've read here, it is possible to use OS of sigma lenses mounted on a Pentax body. Strange that Ricoh did not make the DFA150450 with optical stabilization, that would have been great.

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
And if you had big hands, Canon fits better than Pentax.
Yes, that's also what I noticed, the Canon grip roundly fills the hand and finger to fit perfectly on top of the shutter, then making it more difficult to reach other buttons. One the camera is set, easy shooting, but changing setting require to stop and look down on the camera while changing the settings.

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
Maybe, you miss Canon long lenses.
:-) that's clear. But they aren't for my budget. I asked a couple of times Canon about AF speed when using one of those Tamron 150-600 or Sigma 150-600, he said he wouldn't comment on that.
04-22-2017, 10:52 PM   #19
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,311
QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
Finally, what realy matters, at least for me. The sensor. Sony sensor are better than Canon, in the first year of use, or so. After two years, I had to remember that Sony is a ''consumer electronic manufacturer''. At least in my last Pentax K5 IIs, the noise became huge, clearly visible, even at ISO 250, much worst than my 6 years old Canon 60D, which is clean at ISO 400. And when the noise appears, it is less disturbing in Canon, because is grainy, comparing with the speckled noise of Pentax.
Has anyone else seen this behavior? I don't have that experience, and I haven't heard anyone else mention it.

04-23-2017, 12:12 AM   #20
Veteran Member
JimmyDranox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ploiesti, Romania
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,630
QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
Has anyone else seen this behavior? I don't have that experience, and I haven't heard anyone else mention it.
Maybe it was my bad luck. Bad luck with 2 K-r, one K-5, one K-5 IIs, with some diferences between them, but all with the same evolution in an unreasonable short time, from my point of view.
04-23-2017, 01:31 AM   #21
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 714
I also own and shoot both Canon and Pentax. I have had for some time a 645z and then purchased a K1 with 15-30 and took both on a trip to France.

I am thankful to have taken the 645z as well because I could not get the K1 with 15-30 to focus reliably at distances from 6-10m out to infinity.

Infinity was a nightmare, you would never know where the lens would rack to, sometimes slightly in front of infinity, sometimes right on, sometimes behind. I would say approx 10% or 20% hit rate. I gave up and used the 645z for the rest of the trip.

Boy did I love the K1 though, so nice to use. But when I got back I returned it and purchased a new Canon 5D4 and 16-35mm f4 IS plus a 70-300mm L IS. All I can say is that the Canon offers infinitely more accurate and repeatable AF. Plus, it's such a nice camera to hold and use, with a plethora of customizable AF options and buttons it's amazing.

I purchased the K1 as purely a handheld partner to my 645z, so AF was important as it was to be used almost exclusively handheld with AF. The Canon to me was a much much better fit in every way.

Also, I don't rate the in body IS when you have an OVF, as you don't see the benefit when in use through the OVF when composing and shooting. In body OS is much better in mirrorless cameras with an EVF as you see the result through the EVF. So I find the Canon in lens IS to be much superior as you see it in action and it greatly assists in shooting.

If I didn't have the 645z, I would definitely own both the K1 with lenses and the Canon 5D4, with the K1 on a tripod for landscape and the Canon for travel handheld.

This was my experience anyway.
04-23-2017, 02:36 AM - 1 Like   #22
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 19,933
QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
Maybe, you miss Canon long lenses. I had several Pentax cameras, two Canon, and a lot of lenses of all sorts for both systems. Including Tamron and Sigma lenses for both systems. Tamron and Sigma are making good, sharp lenses, especially with regard to the price, but they are more prone to miss focus than genuine Pentax or Canon lenses. Much more.

About ergonomics of Canon, you are right. It's a pain. But after a while, you get used to it. And if you had big hands, Canon fits better than Pentax. At least for me.

Construction is better at Pentax.

Finally, what realy matters, at least for me. The sensor. Sony sensor are better than Canon, in the first year of use, or so. After two years, I had to remember that Sony is a ''consumer electronic manufacturer''. At least in my last Pentax K5 IIs, the noise became huge, clearly visible, even at ISO 250, much worst than my 6 years old Canon 60D, which is clean at ISO 400. And when the noise appears, it is less disturbing in Canon, because is grainy, comparing with the speckled noise of Pentax.

Yes, I know, if you resize the picture, ... if, and maybe.... And yes, dynamic range. What is better, a very noisy camera with a better dynamic range, or the other way around?

So, I would love a Pentax camera with a Canon sensor inside. And with both stabilizing systems, IBIS for general lenses, and OS for long lenses. Would be a dream.
This is crazy. Canon sensors have gotten a little better in recent years, but the 60D is no where near the performance of the K5 IIs with regard to SNR or dynamic range. DXO Mark tests the K5 IIs at nearly 20 points better based on these two points.

I owned the K5 II (not the s version) for quite awhile and noise didn't become an issue at all until you got to iso 1600. If you were seeing it below that you were doing something wrong -- over sharpening or something.

Pentax K-5 IIs vs Canon EOS 60D
04-23-2017, 02:39 AM   #23
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,478
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Boy did I love the K1 though, so nice to use. But when I got back I returned it and purchased a new Canon 5D4 and 16-35mm f4 IS plus a 70-300mm L IS.
How did you make your mind to justify the price of the 5DIV ? I find the 5DIV rather expensive for how it's built. It is was an entry level camera like the 6D, I'd not be surprised, but $3.5K is getting expensive for a camera of that kind that fade out in only a few years.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-23-2017 at 02:44 AM.
04-23-2017, 03:49 AM   #24
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,297
QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
I also own and shoot both Canon and Pentax. I have had for some time a 645z and then purchased a K1 with 15-30 and took both on a trip to France.

I am thankful to have taken the 645z as well because I could not get the K1 with 15-30 to focus reliably at distances from 6-10m out to infinity.

Infinity was a nightmare, you would never know where the lens would rack to, sometimes slightly in front of infinity, sometimes right on, sometimes behind. I would say approx 10% or 20% hit rate. I gave up and used the 645z for the rest of the trip.

Boy did I love the K1 though, so nice to use. But when I got back I returned it and purchased a new Canon 5D4 and 16-35mm f4 IS plus a 70-300mm L IS. All I can say is that the Canon offers infinitely more accurate and repeatable AF. Plus, it's such a nice camera to hold and use, with a plethora of customizable AF options and buttons it's amazing.

I purchased the K1 as purely a handheld partner to my 645z, so AF was important as it was to be used almost exclusively handheld with AF. The Canon to me was a much much better fit in every way.

Also, I don't rate the in body IS when you have an OVF, as you don't see the benefit when in use through the OVF when composing and shooting. In body OS is much better in mirrorless cameras with an EVF as you see the result through the EVF. So I find the Canon in lens IS to be much superior as you see it in action and it greatly assists in shooting.

If I didn't have the 645z, I would definitely own both the K1 with lenses and the Canon 5D4, with the K1 on a tripod for landscape and the Canon for travel handheld.

This was my experience anyway.
Did you first take the trouble to rule out an issue with that particular lens, or that particular body?
04-23-2017, 03:57 AM   #25
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 714
Firstly the price was not an issue, as a pair of body and lens the canon kit was only $600 more here in Australia.

I did some testing and felt that my findings were justified. Pentax Australia told me that it was within spec hahaha. Nobody in Aus actually believes in sample variation or that their gear could have a fault, it's like getting blood from a stone, so I left it.

Anyway, the other things I found were enough to leave and I am happy. The K1 is a top camera, even better now it has EFCS.

Also as for the build quality comment. The Canon is easily on par with the Pentax. The K1 is not better nor worse in my view. I wish the Canon had the sweet pull out screen of the K1 though.
04-23-2017, 04:37 AM   #26
Pentaxian
MJKoski's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,330
Canon does not have noisy and creaking grip :/
04-23-2017, 04:50 AM - 1 Like   #27
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 10,051
QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Pentax Australia told me that it was within spec hahaha.
Cheap reaponse that most likely was not applicable in your case.

AF with ultra-wides is a challenge as such and if the lens plays up a bit you can get issues quickly. I haven't read about anyone else having AF issues with the 15-30, so I think you most likely just had a bad copy.

Regarding Canon AF vs Pentax AF: I tried a couple of Canon bodies and while I didn't like the ergonomics at all, the AF was always instant (no lag whatsoever) and spot on.

Pentax AF is quick enough for my purposes, so I'm not complaining but there is no doubt in my mind that top-end Canon AF is superiour (and that's not just referring to the lens' AF speed, but AF acquisition overall).

Having said that, amateur testing sites like DPReview (which for eternities evaluated dynamic range by looking at JPGs, talking about "highlight headroom" and other such nonsense) subject Pentax cameras to sloppily conducted and hence challenging bike AF tests while other cameras are taken to events with only keepers being shown in the "review".

So DPReview does its share of perpetuating the idea of Pentax AF being awful. Whenever real laboratories conducted scientific tests, Pentax AF compared very well. The latter tests focus on still subjects with varying lighting, though. How big the gap in AF-C performance is, we'll never learn from DPReview, that's for sure.
04-23-2017, 04:52 AM   #28
Pentaxian
Dan Rentea's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 1,068
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Today I tried a 5D IV and 7D II with 600mm f4. Beside the Pentax K1 and DFA150-450.
That was really interesting and a fairly different reality from the reality of reputation on online saying.
First, ergonomically Canon is a pain. The front and back wheels of Pentax are right next to fingers when holding the grip.
On the Canon interface, the front wheel in vertical on the top and the back wheel in the large wheel at the bottom.
Ergonomic and the place of the buttons is a subjective matter. For me Nikon has the worse menu and placement of the buttons. For a person who is used with one brand, trying another system requires some time to get used to (you always try to find something similar in the other camera and is annoying at first when you don't find it).

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Second, AF testing... well, what normhead posted some times ago , was right, the AF lag on both 5D IV and 7D II is annoying, you press the shutter, wait.... and finally AF starts moving...fast.
On the K1, you press shutter and AF starts moving right away.
Tried both (K1 and 5D Mark IV) for more than 4 full days of paid shooting and another 3 days of shooting side by side with my friend who shoots with K1. On both cameras I used original lenses; K1 with 24-70mm and 70-200mm and 5D Mark IV with a lot of L lenses. Never noticed this "issue" you mentioned. I'll be watching with more attention next time I'll shoot both.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Third, AF speed: well, with the DFA150-450, as soon as the focus limiter is set from 6m to infinity, there is not noticeable difference in AF lock time between the Pentax and both Canons.
Depends on the shooting conditions.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Fourth, build quality, both Canons feel very plastic and less rugged than the Pentax I own.
That's by far the most thing on which I do not agree. If you had referred to 70D or 6D, then I would have been absolutely agreement with you. But these 2 Canon bodies are as tough as Pentax. Pentax K1 looks more ferouceous while 5D Mark IV looks more elegant (my 7 years old grandchildren's opinion, not mine, althrough I agree with them).


QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Fifth, yeah, that's true, Canon AF is faster especially at close distances where the Canon lens AF spins really fast. That mean, mount a Tamron 150-600 or Sigma 150-600 C on a Canon and you won't get the better and cheaper than most people imagine on this forum... but reading online.

Last but not least... we were reviewing a stream of photos taken with 5D IV, sorry but I was impressed by how many photos were out of focus... From reading Pentax forum, I was thinking that Pentax AF was junk compared to Canon. How did people come to this conclusion? In the future, I think I should be more careful when reading online opinions, it's much better to evaluation ourselves by trying real cameras in the real world. Am I missing something?
You came to this conclusion after you repeatedly said that you need time to learn the af-c on the Pentax bodies, but now, after trying 5D Mark IV for a vrey short time you came with a verdict/conclusion? Maybe that's what you're missing. There are clases for photographers using pro Canon cameras on which you learn how to proprerly adjust the focus, depends on what you shoot. Canon's af-c (Ai-servo) is very demanding on these proffesional bodies and you need to learn how to custom the af-c in order to get the most out of the camera. Even if someone experienced with Canon gear is going tu custom the af-c for you, comming from another brand may be in this case the result of out of focus images. Give it a try for more than 1-2 hours. In my experience, it took me 2 full shooting days in order to start to get used with my 6D while I was testing it side by side with K-3 II (which was the camera I had when I started to look in Canon's boat).

Once you learn the 5D Mark IV, I can assure you that the af-c is way better than K1. Af-s is a different story and K1's af-s is quite good.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 04-23-2017 at 05:11 AM.
04-23-2017, 04:55 AM   #29
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 10,051
QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
Canon does not have noisy and creaking grip :/
That's because they simply shed their grips before they start squeaking.
04-23-2017, 05:28 AM   #30
Veteran Member
JimmyDranox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ploiesti, Romania
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,630
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
This is crazy. Canon sensors have gotten a little better in recent years, but the 60D is no where near the performance of the K5 IIs with regard to SNR or dynamic range. DXO Mark tests the K5 IIs at nearly 20 points better based on these two points.

I owned the K5 II (not the s version) for quite awhile and noise didn't become an issue at all until you got to iso 1600. If you were seeing it below that you were doing something wrong -- over sharpening or something.

Pentax K-5 IIs vs Canon EOS 60D
I didn't use oversharpening in camera. I always use PP. And yes, when the camera was new, Pentax K-5 IIs was much better than Canon. Now, my 60D has 80,000 shots, and is almost as in the first day, in term of noise, while all my Pentax has left me way before reaching 30,000, some much sooner.

DxO are testing new cameras.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
af, batteries, camera, canon, dslr, eos, full frame, full-frame, ii, iv, k-1, k1, life, max, pentax, pentax k-1, shutter, time, voltage, wheel
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Canon 5D mk iv review - Northrup compliments K-1! ffking Pentax K-1 16 10-16-2016 03:08 AM
Have anyone tried cheap FF lenses on the K1? weijen Pentax K-1 114 10-05-2016 02:05 AM
Imaging Resource: image quality comparisons with 5D Mark IV includes K-1 EssJayEff Pentax K-1 7 09-04-2016 06:43 AM
5d mk IV specs 'leak' D1N0 Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 93 08-31-2016 02:04 PM
Movie Modes : K5 vs K7 vs 7D vs 5D Christopher M.W.T Video and Pentax HDSLRs 21 02-08-2011 08:20 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:04 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top