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04-23-2017, 06:50 AM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Once you learn the 5D Mark IV, I can assure you that the af-c is way better than K1. Af-s is a different story and K1's af-s is quite good.
Exactly, so your need for Canon or Pentax AF is completely predicated on needing AF.c to get your shots. If you don't shoot AF.c much, you'd be wasting you money. If you rely on first frame AF.s no, AF hold and burst as I do, Canon and Nikon are slower.

But, once the guy with the 1Dx gets locked on his AF.c is faster than my technique. You don't pay an extra 4 grand for a camera for nothing. But whether or not that's actually worth anything. If I'm shooting 10 FPS and he's shooting 10-15, as long as I get what I want out of my 8 shots, I'm good.. As good as he is. I just don't find shooting out in the real world that who gets the image depends on the difference between AF.s and burst and continuous AF.c. And that'w here the extra Canon thing gets blown way out of whack. IF at the end of the day we have pretty much the same images, (except mine have more detail if I used the K-1) and I paid a lot less to get them, to my mind, I've got the camera i want.

Price for value.

Another point here being there's a difference between faster focusing and having faster focusing lenses. IF you aren't using a DFA 70-200, 16-85, 18-135, 150-450 to 28 to 105 then you aren't using one of Pentax's faster focusing lenses, making your comparison, a comparison of lenses, not a comparison of cameras. I have no doubt the best Canon is better than the best Pentax, but they are priced accordingly.

Pentax only makes sense as a value for money system, it's not really the best at anything, except for 36 MP images where Pixel Shift could be used (and AF.s speed according to Imaging Resources) . That being said, making a camera so complicated that you have to be pay more money after the high cost of the camera to learn how to use it, that's not going to be of interest to the average consumer.

So once you get used to a K-3 or K-1 and learn the appropriate techniques, I can assure you, you'll be competitive with any Nikon of Canon shooter out there. Not in terms of raw speed of AF.c which is irrelevant to what you end up with in most situations., but in terms of the actual images taken. In most wildlife situations AF.c isn't an advantage. IN fact because of the shutter lag involved in locking the original focus, it's actually a disadvantage for the first 5 frames.

Buying Canon or Nikon, you are trading for AF.c and giving up how fast the camera acquires focus with a similar lens, or how fast it can trip the shutter if you are pre-focussed. ANd if it was stated that way, I have n problem. But not one pro-canon or Nikon or even Pentax forum reviewer has ever noted how fast Pentax can be at confirming focus in AF.s or in acquiring focus with a fast lens. In fact even Pentax forum reviewers don't say that.

You have to go to Imaging Resources to find out just how good they really are.

04-23-2017, 11:37 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
For a person who is used with one brand, trying another system requires some time to get used to (you always try to find something similar in the other camera and is annoying at first when you don't find it).
Why there is no back wheel on the Canon and why the front wheel is vertical on top of the camera and 2 cam away from the shutter button? That has nothing to do with getting used to it, the wheel aren't when the fingers are when holding the camera, it's not a question of getting used to it, the Canon interface require additional effort because the commands don't fall into place. Even with learning, I won't go through a hand surgery to have my fingers match the Canon interface, I'd expect that they design the camera so that the interface in ergonomic.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Never noticed this "issue" you mentioned. I'll be watching with more attention next time I'll shoot both.
Where is the Canon lag coming from? is that due to a specific AF setting?

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Give it a try for more than 1-2 hours.
I could if I'd own both Pentax and Canon. In any case, the Canon AF is fast, no question about that, except regarding the initial lag that is not on the K1. And Canon have a choice of long lenses that are faster than F5.6 (this helps) and with fast in lens AF motors + optical stabilization. The problem is, I will not buy those lenses. My DFA150450 is sharp and when I'm close enough and get lucky to have a nice subject, I prefer having less keepers, I'd not pay $10000 to have more of the same photos (do people realize that a 200-400 f4, 400 f4, 500 f4 and 600 f4 lenses cost the price of a car? to take photos?). Otherwise, obviously the sky is the limit, a 600 f4 FL IS on 1Dx II is a monster, I don't compare it to Pentax. Hence, I compare what is comparable, i.e Pentax sub $2K gear with the Canon sub $2K.What make a good photo is the location, the time of the day, being prepared (not messing up with camera setting when the bird is there with the right posture), and a Pentax can do it, Canon also.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-23-2017 at 11:43 AM.
04-23-2017, 03:19 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Why there is no back wheel on the Canon and why the front wheel is vertical on top of the camera and 2 cam away from the shutter button? That has nothing to do with getting used to it, the wheel aren't when the fingers are when holding the camera, it's not a question of getting used to it, the Canon interface require additional effort because the commands don't fall into place. Even with learning, I won't go through a hand surgery to have my fingers match the Canon interface, I'd expect that they design the camera so that the interface in ergonomic.
Why there is no joystick on Pentax bodies? It's not that fast to use the 4 way buttons to change the af as it is with the joystick. I'd expect that Pentax will design the camera so that the interface in ergonomic. Canon has a Quick Control menu and you can add in that menu all the important settings you want/need, so that you don't have to go through all the menu searching for something. I personalised that button so that I only needed once in the last 2 years to go in the menu in order to set something. Like I said, the placement of the buttons it's a subject of personal preference.


QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Where is the Canon lag coming from? is that due to a specific AF setting?
Never notticed the lag, but I'll look into it next time I'm going to put my hands on K1. I could ask Kunzite to make a comparation (he lives in Bucharest also and he has a K1). And Kunzite is a Pentaxian 100%.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I could if I'd own both Pentax and Canon. In any case, the Canon AF is fast, no question about that, except regarding the initial lag that is not on the K1. And Canon have a choice of long lenses that are faster than F5.6 (this helps) and with fast in lens AF motors + optical stabilization. The problem is, I will not buy those lenses. My DFA150450 is sharp and when I'm close enough and get lucky to have a nice subject, I prefer having less keepers, I'd not pay $10000 to have more of the same photos (do people realize that a 200-400 f4, 400 f4, 500 f4 and 600 f4 lenses cost the price of a car? to take photos?). Otherwise, obviously the sky is the limit, a 600 f4 FL IS on 1Dx II is a monster, I don't compare it to Pentax. Hence, I compare what is comparable, i.e Pentax sub $2K gear with the Canon sub $2K.What make a good photo is the location, the time of the day, being prepared (not messing up with camera setting when the bird is there with the right posture), and a Pentax can do it, Canon also.
As I said on few occasions, K1 is a wonderful camera for the price. The system itself (new and modern lenses, support and service, etc.) is not as good as the camera, at least not yet.
04-23-2017, 04:37 PM   #34
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I haven't noticed any initial AF lag in Canon. Can someone suggest a way to replicate it? I've got 6D, 7D and an assortment of L glass.

04-23-2017, 07:19 PM - 1 Like   #35
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Which Canon?

You can see the shutter lag times for the Canon 1Dx, you can look up any model currently tested and see how they did on a standardized test (same parameters for all tested cameras.)

Canon 1DX Review: Initial Test - Performance

The K-1 here
Pentax K-1 Review - Performance

Scroll down the page, look under "shutter response" and "Full AutofocusSingle Point AF". They have test numbers for many other cameras on the site. Check out whatever camera you have. Your 6D lag time is .290, your 7D is .131. A K-1 is .09, and a K-3 is .139. so your 7D is .015 faster than a K-1. Interesting since a 1dx is .129. The 7D has less lag than a 1Dx, who knew? Your 6D is way back, at least .1 slower or twice as long. What's really odd is a 7D mk !! is way back of the park measured at .249 second, a full 1/4 second What happened between the 7d and the 7D mk II

Also interesting, you didn't notice the lag difference between your 6D and 7D
04-23-2017, 08:59 PM - 1 Like   #36
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Norm: The troubles I've had aren't with lag, but inability to lock on quickly to a subject at close range (i.e., a face at a reception), often in low light. So we're not talking delays of anything like 0.15 second. More like a full second or more of fruitless hunting sometimes. Pentax gets there eventually, but Canon usually nails it with no trouble.

Another factor, of course, is people's reaction to having a photographer hold up a camera nearby. You need to be able to get the shot before anyone tries to pose or smile, which means getting focus quickly. In some ways, birds are much easier
04-23-2017, 09:36 PM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by bkpix Quote
Norm: The troubles I've had aren't with lag, but inability to lock on quickly to a subject at close range (i.e., a face at a reception), often in low light.
Techniquewise, remember, you can't focus on a face, with PDAF, Canon or otherwise, Bkpix.

You can only focus on a line.

I don't have a problem in low light if I identify an edge I can put a focal point on. The top pic is at ISO 3200.

The Pentax can focus down to -3eV, your Canon won't be better.







Last edited by clackers; 04-23-2017 at 10:17 PM.
04-23-2017, 10:10 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by bkpix Quote
I haven't noticed any initial AF lag in Canon.
When I pressed the shutter button half way, the cameras waited a bit, every time (a fraction of a second) and then focuses. I showed the canon rep to ask if that's normal and he confirmed. Once the Canon camera focuses, it's super fast. On the K1, when I half press the shutter button or the rear AF button, the camera AF reacts instantly I cannot perceive a lag. Honestly, when I was outdoors, I had two canon body mounted on tripod, and my K1 next to it, I focused on a target at about 10m and focused at 20m, back and forth with both Canons and K1, all were fast to focus. I also tried indoors with a 5D IV and the 700-300 f5.6, and the Canon AF lock moment is noticeable, like the Pentax K1. For speed of AF, I've tested a Fuji XT2, and I am sorry to tell Canon that Canon is in the same boat as Pentax regarding AF speed: Fuji XT2 AF is so fast that you cannot know if the camera focused or not.

04-23-2017, 11:43 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
When I pressed the shutter button half way, the cameras waited a bit, every time (a fraction of a second) and then focuses. I showed the canon rep to ask if that's normal and he confirmed. Once the Canon camera focuses, it's super fast. On the K1, when I half press the shutter button or the rear AF button, the camera AF reacts instantly I cannot perceive a lag. Honestly, when I was outdoors, I had two canon body mounted on tripod, and my K1 next to it, I focused on a target at about 10m and focused at 20m, back and forth with both Canons and K1, all were fast to focus. I also tried indoors with a 5D IV and the 700-300 f5.6, and the Canon AF lock moment is noticeable, like the Pentax K1. For speed of AF, I've tested a Fuji XT2, and I am sorry to tell Canon that Canon is in the same boat as Pentax regarding AF speed: Fuji XT2 AF is so fast that you cannot know if the camera focused or not.
Interesting. I found out that changing the focus from a person standing at 1m to me to a person standing at 2m from me, the af on the K1 was slower than Canon's 5D Mark IV af (not by much though). I liked the fact that K1's af was accurate. It is also interesting what you said because if I remeber corectly, this was the first test I've done at the Pentaxian meeting I went a few months ago, and Kunzite and also a few others can confirm that the same thing I notticed when I was changing the focus from a Pentaxian sitting at our table to a stranger who was sitting at a different table, in very dim light. It was acurate, but it needed an extra split of a second to lock focus.

Regarding Fuji XT2, I have a lot more experience with it than I have with K1. It's an absolutly wonderful camera and I think is the only mirrorless I trully love because it also has integrated the only thing I would love to see in all mirrorless cameras, a hibrid viewfinder (optical and electronic). But the af-c is not a match to any of the following cameras: 5D Mark IV, 7D Mark II, 1Dx (I or II), D4/D5, D500. In good weather the af-c is pretty fast, with an impressive 11fps (8 without battery grip) but once the light is not ideal, the af-c starts to miss a bit. The af-s though is there. I have a lot of friends who went to Fuji (dropping Canon and Nikon expensive cameras) and we all got to the same conclusion after months of testing it in various conditions: Fuji has an trully impressive camera in the XT2 model, with absolutely superb lenses, but the af-c is not yet there to compete with the DSLR's I mentioned above. I "fear" that the next model will be there in terms of af-c, or maybe even with a new big firmware update. Regarding image quality, XT2 is way better than 7D Mark II and D500 and the files are very good up to ISO3200.

It also woth mention that for Fuji you have to learn to use Capture One Pro because the Adobe programs (Lightroom and Photoshop) are a joke if you want to process the RAW files of Fuji cameras. If you ask me, I think XT2 is the best mirrorless I've used in terms of IQ and general response.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 04-24-2017 at 05:00 AM.
04-24-2017, 12:08 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote

Finally, what realy matters, at least for me. The sensor. Sony sensor are better than Canon, in the first year of use, or so. After two years, I had to remember that Sony is a ''consumer electronic manufacturer''. At least in my last Pentax K5 IIs, the noise became huge, clearly visible, even at ISO 250, much worst than my 6 years old Canon 60D, which is clean at ISO 400. And when the noise appears, it is less disturbing in Canon, because is grainy, comparing with the speckled noise of Pentax.

Yes, I know, if you resize the picture, ... if, and maybe.... And yes, dynamic range. What is better, a very noisy camera with a better dynamic range, or the other way around?

So, I would love a Pentax camera with a Canon sensor inside. And with both stabilizing systems, IBIS for general lenses, and OS for long lenses. Would be a dream.
First I've ever heard that the Canon sensor is 'better' than the Sony sensor in the Pentax. It's always been the opposite to my knowledge. In fact when I used to follow a Canon forum, Canonites were bemoaning their plight in having Canon sensors rather than Sony sensors as do both Pentax and Nikon. With some regularity Canon users were hoping that Canon would use Sony sensors.

I've got four Pentax DSLR's, a K10D, a Km, a K5 and a K-1...all with Sony sensors and so far...touch wood...I've never experienced any issues as you describe...ever. The K10D is 10 years old, the Km 8 years old, the K-5 6 years old, the K-1...new since February of this year.

Maybe there is some other reason for your K5's issue.
04-24-2017, 02:54 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I didn't use oversharpening in camera. I always use PP. And yes, when the camera was new, Pentax K-5 IIs was much better than Canon. Now, my 60D has 80,000 shots, and is almost as in the first day, in term of noise, while all my Pentax has left me way before reaching 30,000, some much sooner.

DxO are testing new cameras.
It is just odd to me that with all the folks who use older cameras on the forum here we haven't heard reports of Pentax sensors (Sony sensors) aging poorly. Seems as though there would be plenty of folks up in arms that their K5s and D7000s have noise at iso 200.

There are a few more hot pixels as camera sensors age, but those are easy to take care of with mapping in the camera.
04-24-2017, 05:50 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is just odd to me that with all the folks who use older cameras on the forum here we haven't heard reports of Pentax sensors (Sony sensors) aging poorly. Seems as though there would be plenty of folks up in arms that their K5s and D7000s have noise at iso 200.

There are a few more hot pixels as camera sensors age, but those are easy to take care of with mapping in the camera.
It's odd to me also and I had K-5 II and K-3 II. K-5 II was put through a lot of abuse for almost 2 years and it's now being used by a friend of mine with great results. I didn't noticed any "damage" in terms of IQ in the files, and that camera has over 120.000 actuations.
04-24-2017, 05:51 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by bkpix Quote
Norm: The troubles I've had aren't with lag, but inability to lock on quickly to a subject at close range (i.e., a face at a reception), often in low light. So we're not talking delays of anything like 0.15 second. More like a full second or more of fruitless hunting sometimes. Pentax gets there eventually, but Canon usually nails it with no trouble.

Another factor, of course, is people's reaction to having a photographer hold up a camera nearby. You need to be able to get the shot before anyone tries to pose or smile, which means getting focus quickly. In some ways, birds are much easier
This is an environment I have zero experience with... but I find, usually when the camera hunts it's because part of the frame is blocked by something close to the camera. Many times if a corner of the blind is in front of the lens, even though I can clearly see the subject the camera's AF won't lock. I suspect there would be many other factors. But essentially, I'm not the one to give advice and be an expert on that type of shooting. Once a year in the basement shooting gymnastics with the grand daughters is as close as I get to that.
04-24-2017, 08:37 AM   #44
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I have had 5D, 5DII, 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 and none have had any issues of laggy AF initiation with 70-200 f/2.8 IS MK2. Could be with faster moving subjects but galloping horse did not pose any difficulties. I also had 6D but did not use AF lenses with it so dunno about that. I have always used only the center AF point with AF lenses, no matter what brand.
04-24-2017, 11:11 AM - 1 Like   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Maybe there is some other reason for your K5's issue.
Could be when using third party batteries with higher voltage than Pentax original batteries (a lot of the cheap copies of the D-LI90 aren't within Pentax spec...also why they are so cheap... careful). In order to max out the dymanic range of sensors, camera manufacturers supply sensors with the max allowed, as long as the supply does not exceed this value, the usual tested life time of the sensors (and other semiconductor devices) is around 10 years. However, when exceeding the max specified supply voltage, the lifetime of the electronic device reduces quickly (what's call accelerated aging in reliability testing), when using a device beyond the max, a device life time can be reduced down to a few weeks... When using non Pentax batteries , exclude the ones with output voltage higher than the original Pentax batteries.
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