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08-19-2017, 12:32 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It does exactly the same for me. I get random blur, only between 1/30th and 1/200th.


I do not see a difference whether I use a tripod or handheld, if it happens that the shutter speed is between something like 1/30 and 1/200.
The trouble for me is when I use a standard zoom like the 24-70 or 28-105 because the 1/FL shutter speed is often around 1/100.

Whenever I shoot in M mode, I often set the shutter speed to 1/100 and ISO100 and use the top wheel to change ISO according to ambient light (as we were doing in with film be selecting ISO based on average weather for instance). Typically, with the 24-70 or 28-105, a shutter speed of 1/100 @ ISO100 should give fairly good results, but rather often we see even without enlarging the image that there is something wrong. I never observed this problem with the K3, same shooting style. It is to the point that I got sharper images out of the K3 + Tamy 17-50 (comparing K1 image downsized to 24Mp to K3 images). I mean, if a shutter speed of 1/100th gives degrade the image significantly, that's a serious issue for a 36Mpixels sensor because the shutter speed range of 1/30 to 1/200 is one of the most common used; i.e often using f8 or f11 for having everything in focus, which in normal day lighting situation yields something around ISO100 or ISO200 and shutter speed around 1/100.

So, it is not dramatic, it requires some extra awareness/attention and change the camera settings. That said, if shutter shock and mirror induced vibrations are not a new thing , I find a bit weird that Ricoh guys did not test this during the development of the camera. The question is why would this phenomenon be more prominent in a newer camera? They must have been in hurry and skipped some of the design testing before finalizing the camera design. With that kind of shutter shock, I don't really see how the new primes such as the DFA50 and DFA85 will shine to their full potential. A super sharp lens with a shutter shock condition is not going to give a very nice picture, the problem will be even more obvious..
I don't see the same values with other lenses though, at least not that I can remember. 28-105 is my most used lens though, so maybe I just didn't notice other lenses behaving that way. I think I was able to hand hold my 70-200 and shoot around 1/125 and get very sharp results.

08-19-2017, 01:52 PM - 1 Like   #32
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I seem to remember other posts linking the 28-105 + k1 to occasional blurry/unsharp images. I don't have the lens so cannot comment
08-19-2017, 03:02 PM   #33
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Trying to find a common denominator here. Are in-camera lens corrections enabled perchance? Maybe the corrections are poorlly-tuned and affecting image quality? Does the apparent shutter shock also occur with older lenses? I have not noticed such an IQ drop within the stated shutter range on my K-1 but then I always turn off in-camera lens corrections.
08-19-2017, 03:04 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Trying to find a common denominator here. Are in-camera lens corrections enabled perchance? Maybe the corrections are poorlly-tuned and affecting image quality? Does the apparent shutter shock also occur with older lenses? I have not noticed such an IQ drop within the stated shutter range on my K-1 but then I always turn off in-camera lens corrections.
I never used the corrections and only found them recently, so I don't think it was affecting anything (plus I believe they only fix geometry/vignette etc, shouldn't affect ibis or shutter).

08-19-2017, 03:18 PM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
mmmm....mostly, sure, but not always. Over on the medium format forums you'll be seeing folks using longer lenses for landscape---as will I on both my Z and my K1..
Which is why I used the term "mostly". Most of the time they will want a high shutter speed.

I do understand that MF users will use a longer lens for landscape but this discussion is about K1 shuttershock. I have no experience of shutter shock on a Pentax MF camera.

i do understand that at times one will want to use a slower shutter speed with a long lens on a tripod. My advice then is to use ES.

i realise this is not perfect. But look at the tools we had before the age of Shake reduction and Electronic shutter. We knew the limitations of our gear and that if we wanted to use a long lens with a slow shutter speed we would encounter problems with camera shake (if hand held); shutter shock perhaps; mirror slap very likely. The physical attributes and difficulties of lifting a mirror and moving a pair of shutter curtains over a film plane/sensor at a speed which we cannot percieve with the naked eye has not changed one bit. Yes you are right to question it and ask why 1/30-1/200 may be problematic with a long lens on a tripod with the K1. But equally you could ask why does SR only provide 5 stops of extra handholding ability....why not 10 ? Or why can we not have ISO 25600 with the same noise level as ISO 100? The answer to all these questions is one of dealing with a trade-off between producing the best camera in the world and producing one that will sell.

---------- Post added 08-19-2017 at 11:27 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Trying to find a common denominator here. Are in-camera lens corrections enabled perchance? Maybe the corrections are poorlly-tuned and affecting image quality? Does the apparent shutter shock also occur with older lenses? I have not noticed such an IQ drop within the stated shutter range on my K-1 but then I always turn off in-camera lens corrections.
There are other factors to consider too. In-camera corrections will I believe only work when the lens is used for the format for which it was created. So I think that the 60-250 will disable lens correction when used in FF mode. Perhaps someone else can clarify.

I use the K1 exclusively in FF mode and with DA*300/DA*60-250/D-FA 24-70/ FA 77/FA 31/ and numerous A;M;and K series lenses have never seen shutter shock at all WHEN HANDHELD. On a tripod it is a different story and is noticable in the 1/30-1/200 range when using a longer lens.

Last edited by pschlute; 08-19-2017 at 03:32 PM.
08-19-2017, 04:18 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
I think I was able to hand hold my 70-200 and shoot around 1/125 and get very sharp results.
Yes, I can confirm, I don't recall having see that blur shots with the 70-200... yet I still noticed a significant difference with/withou ES with the DFA150450.
08-19-2017, 06:46 PM   #37
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If this is only seen when camera is on a tripod, perhaps it is a failure of the IBIS to be disabled properly.

08-20-2017, 12:33 AM   #38
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I play a bit with different settings and it seems that activating SR reduces the effect of mirror. Using the DFA28-105 @ 105mm, f5.6 and 1/100th, experience shows that using pixel shift, handheld, then disabling PS at raw conversion gives a very good image sharpness... Using PS, the lag in the viewfinder is very short (much shorter than the 2 sec. timer), but it slows down the camera because of the 4 frames being transferred to the SD card. I would like that Ricoh adds a silent shutter mode as a third choice of the PS mode.
08-20-2017, 04:52 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
If this is only seen when camera is on a tripod, perhaps it is a failure of the IBIS to be disabled properly.
I dont think this is the case. Put a long lens on a solid tripod and the slightest vibration will give you a unsharp image if you are using a slow shutter speed
08-20-2017, 02:11 PM   #40
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Interesting, I'll need to take a look at my (rarely used) 24-70 shots in the 1/30 to 1/200 range. However, I wonder if the 3 secs is enough ? For me, on tripod and remote I generally MUP, count to five, then press shutter when light/clouds are at the correct point. I found in my K5/3 days that the 2 second delay occasionally caused a slight blur, so just adapted to a 5 second count, and then a wait for the right moment. A fixed 2 seconds can often miss the right light if things are changing. I'm all for SLOW photographer, coz it makes me look properly.

So does it happen at greater than the 2 or seconds quoted ?
08-21-2017, 01:10 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
So does it happen at greater than the 2 or seconds quoted ?
The main thrust of this thread is about the shutter shock rather than mirror slap. So unless you are using Electronic shutter in LV the timer is irrelevant.
08-21-2017, 01:59 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
The main thrust of this thread is about the shutter shock rather than mirror slap. So unless you are using Electronic shutter in LV the timer is irrelevant.
Whoops - came into the middle off this discussion. So ignore the mirror related issue - sorry. Late evening browsing and little thought ...

I've just checked a few 24-70 shots tripod/remote between the 'problem' range and not seen any issues using standard shutter. As I use this lens very little and I've found blurring/focusing issues across all shutter speeds I probably would not have noticed it anyway.

Is this the problem being reported ? Using the standard (not electronic shutter) - between a range of shutter speeds (1/30 to 1/200), sometimes a blurring can occur, with or without tripod use on some lenses. The 'some' lenses being the DFA 24-70 and DFA 70-200. Is it the thought that it's longer FLs that's the issue (presumably as it's more visible in the image), or a combination of FL and the lens' mass ?

I'll now follow this more carefully and maybe run a few tests when I better understand what the problem is.
08-21-2017, 03:01 AM   #43
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Hi Barry.

I use the DFA 24-70 and dont have any issues with blured images, handheld. Are you sure your problem is not one of focus adjustment which you can do via the AF Fine Adjustment menu?

Anyway as far as shutter shock.....my experience is that when using a long lens DA*300/ DA* 60-250 on a tripod the shock can blur pictures when using a 1/30-1/200 range. I dont notice shutter shock when handheld, but then again I wouldnt try and shoot a 300mm lens at 1/200 handheld. I dont have an issue with shorter FL lenses eg DFA 24-70 when using 1/30-1/200 range either. I believe that any shutter shock handheld should be reduced in severity by a combination of the cushioning effect of the hands and the SR system. Although some people are noticing problems in that range.

Last edited by pschlute; 08-21-2017 at 03:17 AM.
08-21-2017, 12:06 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
I seem to remember other posts linking the 28-105 + k1 to occasional blurry/unsharp images. I don't have the lens so cannot comment
I received my K1 and DFA 28-105 on release day; my initial review of that lens was lack of micro-contrast. Since then, it has become reasonably clear that shutter/mirror shock affects the 28-105 at speeds around 1/30 to 1/200. I have not had similar experiences with any other lens on the K1 - mainly primes or heavy zooms. Possibly the lighter construction of the 28-105, together with the fact it has many sliding joints makes it especially susceptible to any vibrations the camera produces. Maybe it's because my camera is very early (March 2016 build).

I had a similar experience with the 18-135 on the K5. My experience with pretty much any other lens on both bodies is that the mirror/shutter shock is negligible except for any tripod/long exposure shot. For this, the 2 sec delay shot from LV seems optimum, though I have to agree that the EFCS is extra protection in this situation.

:-)
08-21-2017, 12:25 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Hi Barry.

I use the DFA 24-70 and dont have any issues with blured images, handheld. Are you sure your problem is not one of focus adjustment which you can do via the AF Fine Adjustment menu?
.
It's the edge to edge sharpness that bugs me with the 24-70, or rather the lack of it. It's fine in the centre ... this is well covered in other threads. I'm intrigued to see where this thread goes...
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