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09-12-2017, 01:26 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
pschlute already explained it well.

That is also why simple bean bags (if there is the option to use one) can be much better than the average tripod.
Do you mean the option to use a bean bag when the bean bag is on a solid surface and the camera is resting on it? Or some other method?

---------- Post added 09-12-2017 at 01:39 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As has been mentioned, this is not an issue when hand holding. If you are on a tripod, just try to use the electronic shutter if in this particular zone of shutter speeds. I tend to use the e shutter most of the time on a tripod, but honestly, my shutter speeds are seldom in this zone either -- they are typically quite a bit slower on a tripod since I'm stopped down and iso is set for 100.
Are you saying there is no loss of sharpness between 1/60-1/200th when hand holding? With the DFA28-105 I can see a difference fairly regularly from 1/60-1/125 sec handholding and SR on. This is viewing test charts in the camera at 16x

I have not had the lens long enough to see problems in actual pictures yet, but some are saying that this lens is more prone to shutter shake, so I am obsessing a bit more than I normally would.

09-12-2017, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSLRnovice Quote
Do you mean the option to use a bean bag when the bean bag is on a solid surface and the camera is resting on it? Or some other method?

---------- Post added 09-12-2017 at 01:39 PM ----------



Are you saying there is no loss of sharpness between 1/60-1/200th when hand holding? With the DFA28-105 I can see a difference fairly regularly from 1/60-1/125 sec handholding and SR on. This is viewing test charts in the camera at 16x

I have not had the lens long enough to see problems in actual pictures yet, but some are saying that this lens is more prone to shutter shake, so I am obsessing a bit more than I normally would.
I don't own that lens, but I haven't seen issues with the DFA 24-70 when hand holding until I get down to the point that SR can't compensate any more for my shake -- like 1/8 second.
09-12-2017, 08:59 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't own that lens, but I haven't seen issues with the DFA 24-70 when hand holding until I get down to the point that SR can't compensate any more for my shake -- like 1/8 second.
My experience too. The 28-105 seems to be problematic in this regard.
09-13-2017, 04:09 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
My experience too. The 28-105 seems to be problematic in this regard.
Yes, I think so too. I haven't done any systematic testing, but have seen an overall blurred image from time to time with this lens at shutter speeds where I wouldn't expect it. Like everything is just out of focus.

I have not seen the same with any of my (small) primes.

09-13-2017, 11:17 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by savoche Quote
Yes, I think so too. I haven't done any systematic testing, but have seen an overall blurred image from time to time with this lens at shutter speeds where I wouldn't expect it. Like everything is just out of focus.

I have not seen the same with any of my (small) primes.
After looking closely at some scenes I shot when I first purchased the 28-105, I have become concerned. Before stopping down to get more DOF, I found that everything but the closer things were sharper than at f8 and 1/180s. At 28mm this should not be due to handholding the camera. 60-180s are normally very safe for wide to normal handholding, and in fact they are helpful for stopping moderate action in people pictures.

I find it very annoying that a lens I purchased for everyday shooting demands that I must be careful to avoid 1/60 to 1/180s if I want the advantages of the K-1 and these focal lengths.

At the moment I have no way to test the theory that these issues have always been around. It could be possible that we are more aware since the digital age, where we can immediately look at an image greatly enlarged on a computer screen.
09-29-2017, 09:59 AM   #36
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Can newer tripod heads help control shutter vibration?

QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Handholding the camera/lens when using these shutter speed ranges can improve things .... first the hands provide a damping action so the resonance is not as pronounced, and secondly the SR system can possibly reduce the affect. With the K1 and DA*300mm I can get better pictures handheld at 1/60 than I can on a tripod at the same shutter speed.

edit....and I might add I use a Gitzo Series-3 tripod and head !
Now I am considering a new tripod or head, or combo. I have had great confidence in my Bogen/Manfrotto 3001 tripod and 3d head, but now I am wondering if it is time to upgrade. I tried a used Bogen ball head and the shutter vibration was worse with this tripod.

From what I can tell in the camera store, the main advantage of carbon fiber is weight. CB tripods of similar height do not seem any sturdier. Would a better head help? If an expensive Gitzo is no help, is there no reason to go with carbon fiber?
09-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSLRnovice Quote
Now I am considering a new tripod or head, or combo. I have had great confidence in my Bogen/Manfrotto 3001 tripod and 3d head, but now I am wondering if it is time to upgrade. I tried a used Bogen ball head and the shutter vibration was worse with this tripod.

From what I can tell in the camera store, the main advantage of carbon fiber is weight. CB tripods of similar height do not seem any sturdier. Would a better head help? If an expensive Gitzo is no help, is there no reason to go with carbon fiber?
FWIW, I think Gitzo is incredibly overpriced, and I dislike their heads---have to use one at work and find it really annoying. Besides weight, CF also dampens vibration (I think wood does as well---there's a company still making wood tripods....). I like my Feisol legs, and have seen others (Sirui, Giottos, Induros, etc) that seem just fine.

09-29-2017, 12:20 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSLRnovice Quote
Would a better head help? If an expensive Gitzo is no help, is there no reason to go with carbon fiber?
The new Gitzo ball heads such as GH3382QD are teriffic. Opting for a carbon fibre tripod enable you to have a sturdier tripod for less weight to carry.

Don't think that any tripod (except one you cannot carry) will overcome shutter shock, because it wont.
09-29-2017, 05:19 PM   #39
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My current aluminum tripod is not as light as a CF, but not a problem for me in the field. (I do need to wrap one of the legs for cold days) What I am wondering is there a tripod or head that can reduce the vibration I have now at several shutter speeds. Live View and Pixel Shift are options but not always convenient.
09-29-2017, 05:47 PM   #40
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You mentioned certain lenses giving you problems - don't blame the lenses. The amount of shake you get depends on a lot of things including lens+camera weight, tripod+head mass, springiness of the tripod, and the shutter shock itself. Certain lenses may through you into the range of bad shutter shock, but changing other things can cure that, making other lenses the "bad guys". Generally, adding mass at the camera will reduce shutter shock (part of the idea of a bean bag) but of course, makes the combination heavier so it's a tradeoff. Buying the most expensive tripod on the market could actually make shutter shock worse (not that it will), since the things I mentioned constitute a "tuned system" whose tuning frequency and shutter determine the shock when the shutter goes off.

For best results with my K-1, I use liveview with electronic shutter and remote or timed trip. That works pretty well in most cases but is a little more inconvenient, and not suitable for all shots.

An experiment you can try is to add some heavy mass at the top of your aluminum tripod (bolted pretty well to the tripod where it connects to the camera). A lead weight is smaller but a heavy piece of steel will also work. Not so elegant, but it should help.
09-30-2017, 08:57 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
You mentioned certain lenses giving you problems - don't blame the lenses. The amount of shake you get depends on a lot of things including lens+camera weight, tripod+head mass, springiness of the tripod, and the shutter shock itself. Certain lenses may through you into the range of bad shutter shock, but changing other things can cure that, making other lenses the "bad guys". Generally, adding mass at the camera will reduce shutter shock (part of the idea of a bean bag) but of course, makes the combination heavier so it's a tradeoff. Buying the most expensive tripod on the market could actually make shutter shock worse (not that it will), since the things I mentioned constitute a "tuned system" whose tuning frequency and shutter determine the shock when the shutter goes off.

For best results with my K-1, I use liveview with electronic shutter and remote or timed trip. That works pretty well in most cases but is a little more inconvenient, and not suitable for all shots.

An experiment you can try is to add some heavy mass at the top of your aluminum tripod (bolted pretty well to the tripod where it connects to the camera). A lead weight is smaller but a heavy piece of steel will also work. Not so elegant, but it should help.
I really didn't mean to blame the lens. I am disappointed with this aspect of the K-1. Before that I used the K20, from which I could not detect shutter vibration when using 2 second timer and a tripod. I am however told that the DFA28-105 tends to magnify the shutter shock more than some others. It would be interesting to know if film cameras had the same problem while on a tripod, but were not noticed because we could not look as closely as we can today.

I have asked how a bean bag could help, but no answers were given. Are you talking about placing the camera on the bean bag and a solid surface? Or placing on top of the camera somehow?

Someone else proposed a firmware update so that ES could be used as it is in PS, but without saving the four exposures. The delay has caused missed shots, and the LV is also slow to use. Or adding ES as an option for 2 second delay and MU.
09-30-2017, 10:47 AM   #42
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Just want to add my experience here, I use my K-1 exclusively with DFA 28-105 - and I'm getting motion blurs (mostly) at 28mm and slower than 1/250s. I could shoot 10 times at these settings and get the same blurred photos 10 times. At first I thought it must have been a bad day for me to have blurred shots at 28mm and 1/160s - until I found it consistent.

I already gave up and almost never use the K-1 as I've reported/complained about this issue at least 3 times through Pentax distributor and ignored (no answer from Japan according to them) - yet my other complaints are resolved by them (broken mode dial, broken metering, 28-105 zoom stuck). So many problems in my case.

My other hi-res body is an EOS 5DSr, no shutter shock whatsoever, tripod or handheld. I bought the K-1 as my travel kit (hence the 28-105), but this problem occurs in the most used outdoor speed settings and I'd hate to switch to LV and ES...
09-30-2017, 11:00 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSLRnovice Quote
....I am disappointed with this aspect of the K-1....
As has maybe been mentioned, other cameras have had this issue---my "old" A7R rather famously. I truly do think that part of the problem overall is that as these camera get better and better in this format (FF), we are bound to see more problems that we just couldn't/didn't see before. This is true of deep DOF, for instance: what used to be "acceptable" sharpness can now be seen to be not so acceptable. This isn't precisely your issue, but I do think it's in the background.

When I think back closely, i now remember that as I jumped up in formats back in film days, from 35 up to 6x9cm and 4x5in, I had to be a lot more careful. I'm thinking a lot of this is happening again, but now within the same format. I know that in a number of my "down and dirty" on the fly installation shots, they are basically fine for what they need to be. Close examination reveals problems, but by close I mean 1:1, and these images will never be viewed that way after I process them. They are in fact better than what end users actually need.

QuoteQuote:
Someone else proposed a firmware update so that ES could be used as it is in PS, but without saving the four exposures. The delay has caused missed shots, and the LV is also slow to use. Or adding ES as an option for 2 second delay and MU.
Yes. But I never understood the K1 to be a quick camera, rather a more deliberate one. I practically never miss a shot (because of speed), but that's because I am not shooting anything that needs it, really, so am shooting in the camera's operational sweet spot, if you will. Based on my discussions with the Pentax reps before the K1 was released, I never got the impression from them that they were going up against Canon or Nikon with it for action oriented photography.
09-30-2017, 11:01 AM   #44
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Find yourself a cheap M28/2.8 lens and see if you still get shutter shock. Then I will believe it is the fault of the DFA 28-105.
09-30-2017, 11:23 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Find yourself a cheap M28/2.8 lens and see if you still get shutter shock. Then I will believe it is the fault of the DFA 28-105.
I have the Vivitar 28 2.5, it doesn't exhibit shutter shock at same values as dfa. Also, my DA 50 1.8 has smaller shutter shock range than dfa 28-105 at 50mm.
All lenses can suffer from the effect, but so far DFA 28-105 showed the biggest range (1/30 to 1/200 for me) out of all my lenses.
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