Pentax K-1 wiping the floor with Nikon D810, D850.

**clackers** · 09-27-2017, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by bossa

I'm looking to simplify my gear and have been thinking about getting a K-1, but I can't help thinking they'll release another model within the next year.

I doubt it, Bossa. Like another big ticket item, the 645Z, it will probably have a longer time in the marketplace than a cheaper APS-C model would.

surfar · 09-27-2017, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by bossa

I'm looking to simplify my gear and have been thinking about getting a K-1, but I can't help thinking they'll release another model within the next year.

Possibly 2019?(100th yr of Pentax?)....more likely 2020.

photoptimist · 09-27-2017, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Thanks for the comment. JPEG rendering is one thing that can be adjusted to taste, that requires additional effort for non Fuji x users, but eventually users can create their own presets, that's Ok. That said, sensor tech (CMOS vs CCD) and CFA seems to have an impact in how it is possible to render an image. Recent article about Phase One new IQ3 camera back shows just that. Camera/sensors are often measured against parameters such as dynamic range and snr, but how about overall image rendering? I don't see either K1 or D850 having made much progress in that regards (that was my point).

The Phase One IQ3 Trichromatic improves rendering by sacrificing sensitivity. It's CFA is a half stop darker than the one on the previous model to create a cleaner separation of the colors.

But I could see how Nikon, Pentax, etc. are reluctant to copy that strategy because it creates a camera with an inferior ISO-DR curve.

biz-engineer · 09-27-2017, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by photoptimist

The Phase One IQ3 Trichromatic improves rendering by sacrificing sensitivity. It's CFA is a half stop darker than the one on the previous model to create a cleaner separation of the colors. But I could see how Nikon, Pentax, etc. are reluctant to copy that strategy because it creates a camera with an inferior ISO-DR curve.

That, I understand. How did you get the info about the CFA tradeoff made by Phase One ?

edit: I've read again some online articles, I better understand now.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-27-2017 at 10:18 AM.

larsbars · 10-19-2017, 02:13 PM

I got the D850 specifically for the increased AF performance. I have still not sold my K-1 (after a few failed attempts) so I have both cameras right now. I'm testing some things out. All in all, I really can not tell a difference between image quality and detail in real world scenarios.

I will say that the D850 locks focus with more leeway than the K-1, but does it a bit faster. I have yet to get an image that's not exceedingly sharp on the K-1 when it say's its in focus and the subject isn't moving. The D850 is always "acceptably sharp" and this is even after doing extensive AF fine tuning to find the right number for the focal length. When things are moving it's a totally different story and i'm really happy I have the D850 now for the type of shooting I want to do (sports events, weddings, etc). Also the low light focus is just waaaay better on the D850 vs the K-1.

Generally, I prefer the images that I get from the K-1 vs the D850 when it comes to colors and general "feel". Such is life. I think there's still a lot of legs to stand on for the K-1. It's just not THE BEST choice for action photographers.

**sibyrnes** · 10-19-2017, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by larsbars

Generally, I prefer the images that I get from the K-1 vs the D850 when it comes to colors and general "feel".

How can you attribute that completely to the camera? The qualities you mention have a lot to do with the lens. Have you used the same lens on both cameras?

rawr · 10-19-2017, 08:17 PM - **1 Like**

I wouldn't say 'wiping the floor', but you don't have to look far to see the K-1 putting up a very decent fight:

Signal to Noise:

Dynamic Range:

[from DxOMark)

But perhaps the real winner of this fight, based on the same DPReview tests of the D850 originally discussed in this thread, is the little guy we've all been ignoring - the KP (and it's 'Accelerator Unit' chip):

Fcsnt54 · 10-20-2017, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by rawr

I wouldn't say 'wiping the floor', but you don't have to look far to see the K-1 putting up a very decent fight:

Signal to Noise:

Dynamic Range:

[from DxOMark)

But perhaps the real winner of this fight, based on the same DPReview tests of the D850 originally discussed in this thread, is the little guy we've all been ignoring - the KP (and it's 'Accelerator Unit' chip):

Great info, the item i find interesting that you brought the kp into the picture, the yellows and whites are harder to distinguish on the kp and the others compared to it being easier to tell the difference on the k-1. Not sure the kp is the real winner, its good though.

larsbars · 10-20-2017, 10:34 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by sibyrnes

How can you attribute that completely to the camera? The qualities you mention have a lot to do with the lens. Have you used the same lens on both cameras?

Yeah I can't attribute it to the camera for sure. I don't have a lens that crosses over to both cameras obviously. I will say though that i've used 3 lenses on the nikon and 3 on the pentax and the preference remains the same across all of those lenses. I'd guess it has more to do with the camera than the lenses but I don't know. The interesting thing to me is that the D850 doesn't impress me above and beyond the K-1 with anything except autofocus ability. Maybe that will change as I get more familiar.

**sibyrnes** · 10-20-2017, 10:50 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by larsbars

Yeah I can't attribute it to the camera for sure. I don't have a lens that crosses over to both cameras obviously. I will say though that i've used 3 lenses on the nikon and 3 on the pentax and the preference remains the same across all of those lenses. I'd guess it has more to do with the camera than the lenses but I don't know. The interesting thing to me is that the D850 doesn't impress me above and beyond the K-1 with anything except autofocus ability. Maybe that will change as I get more familiar.

Well as a long time Pentax user(and ex Nikon salesperson) i am happy to hear that.

zmohie · 10-20-2017, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by superpowerpinger

Dynamic range analysis for Nikon D850 is out on DP review. This should be the part of complete review to be released at a later date.

Nikon D850 First Impressions Review
Analysis: Dynamic Range

I used the Image comparison tool to compare the cameras:

1. Nikon D850 ISO 64 +6EV
2. Nikon D810 ISO 64 +6EV
3. Pentax K-1 ISO 100 +6EV
4. Pentax K-1 ISO 100 +6EV

Results:

From what I can see:

1. K-1 ISO 100 seems to be better than D810, D850 on ISO64.
2. K-1 with Pixel-shift wipes the floor with all other images.

I think Nikon iso 60 is a fake not a real.

pastorbbc · 10-20-2017, 05:24 PM

I'm having the same experience as Larsbars. I currently have the D850 with E series lens and the autofocus is amazing. But when it comes to photos that I take everyday and with 90 percent of my photography I prefer the K1 that I sold. I was using full frame Pentax lens (24-70, 70-200, 15-30) and the prime limited lens and I like the rendering of those lens better than the comparable lenes of Nikon. I prefer it so much that I'm considering going back to my Pentax setup. Along with that I really miss my K3 II. That camera was a great hiking camera that took excellent photos, I absolutely agree with the posts above concerning DSLR's reaching a point where the sensors are so good that it's hard to tell a lot of difference in the images from camera to camera. Learning to shoot with the camera you have goes a long way in getting great results. At 65 I'm also more concerned with the weight of the camera and the weight of the lens. The limited Pentax lens certainly help in that category.

**Rondec** · 10-21-2017, 03:10 AM

I can understand people wanting higher frame rates and bigger buffers. I wish that the K-1 was a little better in that respect. The K10 had 3 fps and was viewed as a killer camera for the time due to its tough body, sealing and excellent low iso performance. But times change.

I'm just not sure that if Pentax released a D850 clone for 1000 dollars more but continued to offer a K-1 for current prices that I would gravitate to the D850 clone. My guess is that for a thousand dollars I would prefer to deal with the limitations of the K-1.

biz-engineer · 10-21-2017, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by zmohie

I think Nikon iso 60 is a fake not a real.

You are right. Sensors such as BSI actually have a higher light collecting efficiency that is equivalent to have a faster shutter speed for the same amount of light collected at ISO100, eq. to ISO150 with a BSI sensor. ISO50 is achieved by in camera ETTR, the RGB sensor analyzes the scene brightness then the exposure time is bumped to collect more light, the image data is scaled down to the same factor, thus improving the signal to noise in the final image. The advantage of automated ETTR is that the camera make it to the top of DXO charts under 18% grey exposure. When there is no bright light zone in an image, it is possible to overexpose 1stop on K1 and underexpose in post, it's like having ISO50.

MJKoski · 10-21-2017, 01:47 PM

Having seen the RAW output from D850 I would not put it against K-1 with Pixel-Shift in technical sense. Nothing, except those modern MF backs, is able to reach quality of PS exposure where it can be used successfully. Nikon has major lens advantage though,

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09-27-2017, 04:06 AM	#61
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by bossa I'm looking to simplify my gear and have been thinking about getting a K-1, but I can't help thinking they'll release another model within the next year. I doubt it, Bossa. Like another big ticket item, the 645Z, it will probably have a longer time in the marketplace than a cheaper APS-C model would.

09-27-2017, 04:33 AM	#62
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by bossa I'm looking to simplify my gear and have been thinking about getting a K-1, but I can't help thinking they'll release another model within the next year. Possibly 2019?(100th yr of Pentax?)....more likely 2020.

09-27-2017, 05:10 AM	#63
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,123	Originally posted by biz-engineer Thanks for the comment. JPEG rendering is one thing that can be adjusted to taste, that requires additional effort for non Fuji x users, but eventually users can create their own presets, that's Ok. That said, sensor tech (CMOS vs CCD) and CFA seems to have an impact in how it is possible to render an image. Recent article about Phase One new IQ3 camera back shows just that. Camera/sensors are often measured against parameters such as dynamic range and snr, but how about overall image rendering? I don't see either K1 or D850 having made much progress in that regards (that was my point). The Phase One IQ3 Trichromatic improves rendering by sacrificing sensitivity. It's CFA is a half stop darker than the one on the previous model to create a cleaner separation of the colors. But I could see how Nikon, Pentax, etc. are reluctant to copy that strategy because it creates a camera with an inferior ISO-DR curve.

09-27-2017, 10:10 AM	#64
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by photoptimist The Phase One IQ3 Trichromatic improves rendering by sacrificing sensitivity. It's CFA is a half stop darker than the one on the previous model to create a cleaner separation of the colors. But I could see how Nikon, Pentax, etc. are reluctant to copy that strategy because it creates a camera with an inferior ISO-DR curve. That, I understand. How did you get the info about the CFA tradeoff made by Phase One ? edit: I've read again some online articles, I better understand now. Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-27-2017 at 10:18 AM.

10-19-2017, 02:13 PM	#65
larsbars Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 31	I got the D850 specifically for the increased AF performance. I have still not sold my K-1 (after a few failed attempts) so I have both cameras right now. I'm testing some things out. All in all, I really can not tell a difference between image quality and detail in real world scenarios. I will say that the D850 locks focus with more leeway than the K-1, but does it a bit faster. I have yet to get an image that's not exceedingly sharp on the K-1 when it say's its in focus and the subject isn't moving. The D850 is always "acceptably sharp" and this is even after doing extensive AF fine tuning to find the right number for the focal length. When things are moving it's a totally different story and i'm really happy I have the D850 now for the type of shooting I want to do (sports events, weddings, etc). Also the low light focus is just waaaay better on the D850 vs the K-1. Generally, I prefer the images that I get from the K-1 vs the D850 when it comes to colors and general "feel". Such is life. I think there's still a lot of legs to stand on for the K-1. It's just not THE BEST choice for action photographers.

10-19-2017, 07:50 PM	#66
sibyrnes Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 447	Originally posted by larsbars Generally, I prefer the images that I get from the K-1 vs the D850 when it comes to colors and general "feel". How can you attribute that completely to the camera? The qualities you mention have a lot to do with the lens. Have you used the same lens on both cameras?

10-19-2017, 08:17 PM - 1 Like	#67
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	I wouldn't say 'wiping the floor', but you don't have to look far to see the K-1 putting up a very decent fight: Signal to Noise: Dynamic Range: [from DxOMark) But perhaps the real winner of this fight, based on the same DPReview tests of the D850 originally discussed in this thread, is the little guy we've all been ignoring - the KP (and it's 'Accelerator Unit' chip):

10-20-2017, 09:35 AM	#68
Fcsnt54 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: California Posts: 621	Originally posted by rawr I wouldn't say 'wiping the floor', but you don't have to look far to see the K-1 putting up a very decent fight: Signal to Noise: Dynamic Range: [from DxOMark) But perhaps the real winner of this fight, based on the same DPReview tests of the D850 originally discussed in this thread, is the little guy we've all been ignoring - the KP (and it's 'Accelerator Unit' chip): Great info, the item i find interesting that you brought the kp into the picture, the yellows and whites are harder to distinguish on the kp and the others compared to it being easier to tell the difference on the k-1. Not sure the kp is the real winner, its good though.

10-20-2017, 10:34 AM - 1 Like	#69
larsbars Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 31	Originally posted by sibyrnes How can you attribute that completely to the camera? The qualities you mention have a lot to do with the lens. Have you used the same lens on both cameras? Yeah I can't attribute it to the camera for sure. I don't have a lens that crosses over to both cameras obviously. I will say though that i've used 3 lenses on the nikon and 3 on the pentax and the preference remains the same across all of those lenses. I'd guess it has more to do with the camera than the lenses but I don't know. The interesting thing to me is that the D850 doesn't impress me above and beyond the K-1 with anything except autofocus ability. Maybe that will change as I get more familiar.

10-20-2017, 10:50 AM - 2 Likes	#70
sibyrnes Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 447	Originally posted by larsbars Yeah I can't attribute it to the camera for sure. I don't have a lens that crosses over to both cameras obviously. I will say though that i've used 3 lenses on the nikon and 3 on the pentax and the preference remains the same across all of those lenses. I'd guess it has more to do with the camera than the lenses but I don't know. The interesting thing to me is that the D850 doesn't impress me above and beyond the K-1 with anything except autofocus ability. Maybe that will change as I get more familiar. Well as a long time Pentax user(and ex Nikon salesperson) i am happy to hear that.

10-20-2017, 03:50 PM	#71
zmohie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: egypt Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 435	Originally posted by superpowerpinger Dynamic range analysis for Nikon D850 is out on DP review. This should be the part of complete review to be released at a later date. Nikon D850 First Impressions Review Analysis: Dynamic Range I used the Image comparison tool to compare the cameras: 1. Nikon D850 ISO 64 +6EV 2. Nikon D810 ISO 64 +6EV 3. Pentax K-1 ISO 100 +6EV 4. Pentax K-1 ISO 100 +6EV Results: From what I can see: 1. K-1 ISO 100 seems to be better than D810, D850 on ISO64. 2. K-1 with Pixel-shift wipes the floor with all other images. I think Nikon iso 60 is a fake not a real.

10-20-2017, 05:24 PM	#72
pastorbbc Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Morganton, NC Posts: 148	I'm having the same experience as Larsbars. I currently have the D850 with E series lens and the autofocus is amazing. But when it comes to photos that I take everyday and with 90 percent of my photography I prefer the K1 that I sold. I was using full frame Pentax lens (24-70, 70-200, 15-30) and the prime limited lens and I like the rendering of those lens better than the comparable lenes of Nikon. I prefer it so much that I'm considering going back to my Pentax setup. Along with that I really miss my K3 II. That camera was a great hiking camera that took excellent photos, I absolutely agree with the posts above concerning DSLR's reaching a point where the sensors are so good that it's hard to tell a lot of difference in the images from camera to camera. Learning to shoot with the camera you have goes a long way in getting great results. At 65 I'm also more concerned with the weight of the camera and the weight of the lens. The limited Pentax lens certainly help in that category.

10-21-2017, 03:10 AM	#73
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	I can understand people wanting higher frame rates and bigger buffers. I wish that the K-1 was a little better in that respect. The K10 had 3 fps and was viewed as a killer camera for the time due to its tough body, sealing and excellent low iso performance. But times change. I'm just not sure that if Pentax released a D850 clone for 1000 dollars more but continued to offer a K-1 for current prices that I would gravitate to the D850 clone. My guess is that for a thousand dollars I would prefer to deal with the limitations of the K-1.

10-21-2017, 03:37 AM	#74
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by zmohie I think Nikon iso 60 is a fake not a real. You are right. Sensors such as BSI actually have a higher light collecting efficiency that is equivalent to have a faster shutter speed for the same amount of light collected at ISO100, eq. to ISO150 with a BSI sensor. ISO50 is achieved by in camera ETTR, the RGB sensor analyzes the scene brightness then the exposure time is bumped to collect more light, the image data is scaled down to the same factor, thus improving the signal to noise in the final image. The advantage of automated ETTR is that the camera make it to the top of DXO charts under 18% grey exposure. When there is no bright light zone in an image, it is possible to overexpose 1stop on K1 and underexpose in post, it's like having ISO50.

10-21-2017, 01:47 PM	#75
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	Having seen the RAW output from D850 I would not put it against K-1 with Pixel-Shift in technical sense. Nothing, except those modern MF backs, is able to reach quality of PS exposure where it can be used successfully. Nikon has major lens advantage though,