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09-13-2017, 08:54 PM   #1
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Concert Shooting and the High-ISO NR feature.

Tomorrow night I have a job in Sydney shooting a well known aussie band called PVT. I'm shot pictures for them before earlier this year with my K-50 but this time I have the K-1

I recently read up about the Noise Reduction features, specifically High-ISO NR (specifically found at Menu>Camera 2>Noise Reduction>Hig-ISO NR).

Typically I have been shooting with this at default, Auto. However the concert environment (if experience is anything to go by) is dimly lit, and definitely no flash to be used, I imagine 3200 and 6400 ISO may be the norm. Do you think bumping this feature on at all helps in this kinda scenario? I have noticed switching it on things are slower to process, I'm just wondering if I should leave off and do all my NR in Lightroom as I shoot RAW anyway. Or does the K-1 do a significant and important step in-camera in regards to this and it would be foolish to ignore it?

Also, please feel free to share any specific user settings you might choose to photograph an event like this, my current choice is;

TAv mode
AF.C
AF 2 Enabled (so that I back button focus)
I'll adjust Aperture and Shutter speed depending upon light available, closeness to subject and whether they are animated or fairly stationary (fast or slow song).
Center Weighted
AF Active Area SEL
ISO AUTO (up to 51200)

So yeh that's pretty much it, was just curious over the consensus of the High-ISO NR feature and whether its benefits outweigh the slower process time (is this something best left to those not wanting to PP?).

Cheers,

Bruce

09-13-2017, 08:58 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Tomorrow night I have a job in Sydney shooting a well known aussie band called PVT. I'm shot pictures for them before earlier this year with my K-50 but this time I have the K-1

I recently read up about the Noise Reduction features, specifically High-ISO NR (specifically found at Menu>Camera 2>Noise Reduction>Hig-ISO NR).

Typically I have been shooting with this at default, Auto. However the concert environment (if experience is anything to go by) is dimly lit, and definitely no flash to be used, I imagine 3200 and 6400 ISO may be the norm. Do you think bumping this feature on at all helps in this kinda scenario? I have noticed switching it on things are slower to process, I'm just wondering if I should leave off and do all my NR in Lightroom as I shoot RAW anyway. Or does the K-1 do a significant and important step in-camera in regards to this and it would be foolish to ignore it?

Also, please feel free to share any specific user settings you might choose to photograph an event like this, my current choice is;

TAv mode
AF.C
AF 2 Enabled (so that I back button focus)
I'll adjust Aperture and Shutter speed depending upon light available, closeness to subject and whether they are animated or fairly stationary (fast or slow song).
Center Weighted
AF Active Area SEL
ISO AUTO (up to 51200)

So yeh that's pretty much it, was just curious over the consensus of the High-ISO NR feature and whether its benefits outweigh the slower process time (is this something best left to those not wanting to PP?).

Cheers,

Bruce
If you're only shooting in RAW, it's not necessary to enable this setting. Pentax JPEGs do a lot of baseline NR anyway, so even the OOC files should be fine without it (IMO). However, it doesn't add that much overhead either, so it's up to you if shooting RAW+!

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09-13-2017, 09:01 PM   #3
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Not that I have a K1 or do concert photography, but I usually have all in-body processing features off to save writing time so that I won't miss the next shot.
09-13-2017, 09:04 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
If you're only shooting in RAW, it's not necessary to enable this setting. Pentax JPEGs do a lot of baseline NR anyway, so even the OOC files should be fine without it (IMO). However, it doesn't add that much overhead either, so it's up to you if shooting RAW+!
I see, so the NR is only applied to the Jpeg, and seeing as I am not RAW+ but only RAW then it doesn't do a single thing?

I read beholder3's horsey article and shooting recommendations (very good it was), I noticed he is keen to turn off a lot of things (in that particular scenario) for fear that these things may slow down AF (so D-Range and Noise Reduction off etc). If shooting RAW and not RAW+ and these things are left as default (typically Auto), then do these things apply at all if Jpegs aren't being written separately?

You may have seen a thread I posted a week or so ago about my curiousness to SR/IS and whether having it on lessoned the accuracy of AF or slowed down its precision etc. It seems beholder3 is slightly leaning towards that feeling, but I just wonder how much of the K-1 ignores any of these Auto default features entirely if not producing jpgs and shooting only RAW...

---------- Post added 09-14-17 at 02:10 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pakinjapan Quote
Not that I have a K1 or do concert photography, but I usually have all in-body processing features off to save writing time so that I won't miss the next shot.
How do we know what all the 'in-body' processing features are exactly, and what ones are perhaps a little more crucial to keep on than off? For example, I don't bother with any of the 'Menu>Camera 3>Clarity-ASTROTRACER' stuff (well sometimes I use PS and Astro for those specific uses) but what about things like Lens Correction found under Menu>Camera 4? I noticed that's on by default but the other stuff above it such as AA Filter Simulator, Horizon Correction, Composition Adjust. are off by defualt? (I don't even know what half these things do/are lol)

09-13-2017, 09:27 PM   #5
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Don't have many concert opportunities here but when I do a little night shooting I have been experimenting with this technique a bit.
Iso invariance - PentaxForums.com
Still learning but think it would be ideal for a concert where it is really hard to get the correct exposure for the changing lighting. The idea is to be underexposed at all times but only by lowering your Iso and leaving your shutter and aperture as bright as you can. You can then correct your exposures in PP at your leisure with no loss of quality in an Iso invariant camera but with that much more control of the highlights.
09-13-2017, 09:31 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I see, so the NR is only applied to the Jpeg, and seeing as I am not RAW+ but only RAW then it doesn't do a single thing?

I read beholder3's horsey article and shooting recommendations (very good it was), I noticed he is keen to turn off a lot of things (in that particular scenario) for fear that these things may slow down AF (so D-Range and Noise Reduction off etc). If shooting RAW and not RAW+ and these things are left as default (typically Auto), then do these things apply at all if Jpegs aren't being written separately?

You may have seen a thread I posted a week or so ago about my curiousness to SR/IS and whether having it on lessoned the accuracy of AF or slowed down its precision etc. It seems beholder3 is slightly leaning towards that feeling, but I just wonder how much of the K-1 ignores any of these Auto default features entirely if not producing jpgs and shooting only RAW...

---------- Post added 09-14-17 at 02:10 PM ----------



How do we know what all the 'in-body' processing features are exactly, and what ones are perhaps a little more crucial to keep on than off? For example, I don't bother with any of the 'Menu>Camera 3>Clarity-ASTROTRACER' stuff (well sometimes I use PS and Astro for those specific uses) but what about things like Lens Correction found under Menu>Camera 4? I noticed that's on by default but the other stuff above it such as AA Filter Simulator, Horizon Correction, Composition Adjust. are off by defualt? (I don't even know what half these things do/are lol)
Switch 'em off.

Remember that in creating the RAW file, the camera bothers to develop and include inside it a JPEG for preview, replay and thumbnail purposes. It includes all that processing.

Try selecting B&W, shoot RAW only, and you'll see what I mean.
09-13-2017, 10:04 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
How do we know what all the 'in-body' processing features are exactly,
I am on K3 and this forum has a very nice basic setting guideline which I follow 99% of them. I guess they have a similar guideline setting for K1 too?
Other K1 User might be able to point you in the right direction.

talk about the"Composition Adjustment", I will want to have that thing off for concert shooting or any shooting with no tripod. If it on, whenever you turn the live view or camera on / off, it will ask you to adjust the new composition. It helps move sensor to cover more area. I used it all the time on my city landscape. Love it but definitely turn it off if you are not on a tripod.

- edit -
found the K1 setting guideline!
https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-k-1-review/recommended-settings.html

Last edited by pakinjapan; 09-13-2017 at 10:14 PM.
09-13-2017, 10:11 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I see, so the NR is only applied to the Jpeg, and seeing as I am not RAW+ but only RAW then it doesn't do a single thing?
Correct, though it may write it in the metadata so that a JPEG output by DCU would have NR applied.

Most in-camera processing options do not affect raw file data. These include custom image, software noise reduction, white balance and lens corrections, which can be changed retroactively when the raw file is developed.

There are a few processing options which do have an impact on raw files.
  • Slow shutter speed noise reduction - doubles the exposure time to subtract sensor noise from the image you captured (>=30s exposures)
  • Highlight correction - underexposes the captured image then lifts the shadows digitally
Of course, anything that involves multiple exposures and/or sensor movement will also affect raw files, such as the AA filter simulator or pixel shift.


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09-13-2017, 10:11 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I read beholder3's horsey article and shooting recommendations (very good it was), I noticed he is keen to turn off a lot of things (in that particular scenario) for fear that these things may slow down AF (so D-Range and Noise Reduction off etc). If shooting RAW and not RAW+ and these things are left as default (typically Auto), then do these things apply at all if Jpegs aren't being written separately?

You may have seen a thread I posted a week or so ago about my curiousness to SR/IS and whether having it on lessoned the accuracy of AF or slowed down its precision etc. It seems beholder3 is slightly leaning towards that feeling, but I just wonder how much of the K-1 ignores any of these Auto default features entirely if not producing jpgs and shooting only RAW...

Does image processing affect AF speed? A quick Google search seems to indicate that processing speed may slow down with high sensitivity motion tracking set, but does that actually affect AF speed?

I would not expect SR to affect AF speed; in the horse racing article beholder3 doesn't say that, but more that if you turn off SR it will help remove any additional variables to consider when analyzing your photo results in the race situation.
09-13-2017, 11:15 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Switch 'em off.

Remember that in creating the RAW file, the camera bothers to develop and include inside it a JPEG for preview, replay and thumbnail purposes. It includes all that processing.

Try selecting B&W, shoot RAW only, and you'll see what I mean.
Yeh I have seen that before, it's kinda 'fake' B&W... RAW is still colour. This is why some maniacs convert their colour sensors to being monochrome right (in an effort to increase sharpness so I hear)? It's a difficult and expensive conversion so I am told, I wonder if anyone has actually had their K-1 converted

QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Correct, though it may write it in the metadata so that a JPEG output by DCU would have NR applied.

Most in-camera processing options do not affect raw file data. These include custom image, software noise reduction, white balance and lens corrections, which can be changed retroactively when the raw file is developed.

There are a few processing options which do have an impact on raw files.
  • Slow shutter speed noise reduction - doubles the exposure time to subtract sensor noise from the image you captured (>=30s exposures)
  • Highlight correction - underexposes the captured image then lifts the shadows digitally
Of course, anything that involves multiple exposures and/or sensor movement will also affect raw files, such as the AA filter simulator or pixel shift.
If they do not affect the raw data, are they still computations that take place however (for the Jpeg preview etc), by turning everything off do we gain peace of mind somewhat that things are optimised as much as can be for RAW specific users? I mean... i play computer games right, I can see my CPU struggling under certain games, I close any applications open that might be hogging CPU and Memory (Such as an open browser with 30 tabs open), and things definitely improve by doing so. I dunno... I kinda see cameras as mini computers so I take that mentality with me (rightly or wrongly!).

And yes, I think with some long exposure shots I have been puzzled as to why the shot then 'counts down' almost the same length of time as it was exposed before letting me preview the shot. It must be doing the Slow Shutter Speed NR then? It's a bit of a PIA tbh is it that crucial? Once again can we just turn it off and correct NR in LR during PP or is it that crucial and significant... <I shall go hunting for an article on this another time I think>. Certainly I will turn it off during the testing phase and then perhaps toggle on when doing the shot for real.

QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
Does image processing affect AF speed? A quick Google search seems to indicate that processing speed may slow down with high sensitivity motion tracking set, but does that actually affect AF speed?

I would not expect SR to affect AF speed; in the horse racing article beholder3 doesn't say that, but more that if you turn off SR it will help remove any additional variables to consider when analyzing your photo results in the race situation.
I took his message to meaning turning off everything where possible that might interfere with the computation side of things to do with AF. He started by listing the aforementioned articles before ending on the SR argument (interestingly I thought recommending it be off for Beginners). Remember, his shooting speed was 1/250th-1/1000th speed which SR could still assist with some of those focal lengths...
09-14-2017, 12:55 AM - 1 Like   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
If they do not affect the raw data, are they still computations that take place however (for the Jpeg preview etc), by turning everything off do we gain peace of mind somewhat that things are optimised as much as can be for RAW specific users? I mean... i play computer games right, I can see my CPU struggling under certain games, I close any applications open that might be hogging CPU and Memory (Such as an open browser with 30 tabs open), and things definitely improve by doing so. I dunno... I kinda see cameras as mini computers so I take that mentality with me (rightly or wrongly!). And yes, I think with some long exposure shots I have been puzzled as to why the shot then 'counts down' almost the same length of time as it was exposed before letting me preview the shot. It must be doing the Slow Shutter Speed NR then? It's a bit of a PIA tbh is it that crucial? Once again can we just turn it off and correct NR in LR during PP or is it that crucial and significant... . Certainly I will turn it off during the testing phase and then perhaps toggle on when doing the shot for real.


Regarding slow shutter speed NR, for shorter exposures you can skip over it, but for multi-minute exposures it can really pay off. The alternative is to shoot the frame yourself and manually "subtract" the hot pixels in post. This can save a lot of time.

As for performance, the only setting really worth disabling is lens distortion correction, which takes 1.5-2s of extra processing time per frame, which is quite noticeable (prohibitively so whens hooting bursts). It will be applied to the thumbnail in the raw file AFAIK. There's a more in-depth discussion of this in our k-1 review.

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09-14-2017, 01:00 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
[/I]Regarding slow shutter speed NR, for shorter exposures you can skip over it, but for multi-minute exposures it can really pay off. The alternative is to shoot the frame yourself and manually "subtract" the hot pixels in post. This can save a lot of time.

As for performance, the only setting really worth disabling is lens distortion correction, which takes 1.5-2s of extra processing time per frame, which is quite noticeable (prohibitively so whens hooting bursts). It will be applied to the thumbnail in the raw file AFAIK. There's a more in-depth discussion of this in our k-1 review.
I noticed in LR there's a whole Lens Profile thing, pull down menus for Pentax lenses and stuff like Lens Distortion are there, so you can always use this no (instead of the in-camera lens distortion correction feature)? Mind u... my FA50mm 1.4 isn't in the list, is there a place you can go to 'add' it to LR?
09-14-2017, 10:43 AM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Mind u... my FA50mm 1.4 isn't in the list, is there a place you can go to 'add' it to LR?
You can create your own lens profiles with the "Lens Profile Creator". It just takes some time to take the shots needed for a lens profile, though with a prime it's not as much work as with a zoom lens.

Create your own Lens Profiles Julieanne Kost's Blog
09-14-2017, 11:51 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by funktionsfrei Quote
You can create your own lens profiles with the "Lens Profile Creator". It just takes some time to take the shots needed for a lens profile, though with a prime it's not as much work as with a zoom lens.

Create your own Lens Profiles Julieanne Kost's Blog

Thanks for that, I downloaded Adobe Air, tried the Lens Profiler Downloader first, the only entry for the FA50mm 1.4 is for the K-5, which has a crop factor of 1.5, so I'm thinking that probably won't do for me on the K-1 (the download failed as well for some reason :S ), I have downloaded the Lens Profile Creator however and will have a tinker, however I'm not sure how long I will hold onto my FA50mm 1.4. I'm really looking for a portrait prime that has a AF/MF switch long term so am keen to see what Pentax release in the future (or I may go down the road of the 55*). But thanks once again
09-14-2017, 12:07 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I'm really looking for a portrait prime that has a AF/MF switch
What would that be good for? Your camera has one, why should the lens have another one?
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