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11-16-2017, 11:10 AM   #1
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Mirror Slap / Shutter Shock on K-1

Like some of you I find the K-1 with 28-105 highly prone to blur in the 1/125 second shutter range. It's not unexpected that a large mirror and lightweight lens might have this issue. I found general information in other threads and have a few questions:

1) I've been using Live View with Electronic Shutter (ES) and can confirm that eliminates the blur. Risk of rolling shutter is not a concern for me. Does ES cause extra noise or reduced dynamic range?

2) Does the K-1 have a way to set a microdelay (much shorter than the 2-second timer) when using OVF?

3) Has anyone sent their K-1 to Precision for this issue, and was Precision able to make any mechanical improvement?

11-16-2017, 12:10 PM   #2
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Curious what conditions cause this? I have K-1 and 28-105 and have never seen this issue. Possible I do not shoot in the range that causes the issue or possibly different firmware?
11-16-2017, 12:12 PM   #3
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Unfortunately, the ES also turns off shake reduction, so it's not for full time use.
11-16-2017, 12:38 PM - 3 Likes   #4
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1) ES would be a little noisier because the image will contain a very faint ghost of whatever the sensor was exposed to before the electronic reset. I've not tested it but would expect it to be most noticeable in night photography where you might see a very faint ghost of moving lights from before the intended exposure time.

2) There's nothing in menus. Whether some clever soul could create a firmware hack is another issue.

3) Adjustment probably can't help because it's inherent to the basic physics of the system -- the camera body pushes on the mirror to move it and the mirror pushes back on the body (Newton's 3rd law). The lighter and more compact the mass of the body, the greater the body's motion in response to the mirror's push-back. In theory, one can build shock-free mirror mechanisms with a clever counterweight that moves in the opposite direction of the mirror but that adds a lot of cost, complexity, weight, bulk, power draw, and noise.

P.S. One trick I've used to mechanically stabilize a camera is to bolt a small tripod to the bottom even for hand-held shots. The mass of the tripod suspended below the camera significantly dampens camera vibration. It may look silly and be a bit awkward but it might be worth a try. Call it a poor-man's steady cam.

11-16-2017, 01:02 PM   #5
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I have made a number of contributions to the other threads on this issue.

First, I don't have the 28-105.

Secondly, I don't notice shutter shock when handholding with any of my lenses.

Thirdly, I do notice shutter shock issues in the 1/60-1/200 range when using a long lens (with tripod foot) on a tripod.

In my experience the issue is solely down to shutter shock, as using MLU does not improve the situation at all. Using ES as the OP says, completlely eliminates the problem.
11-16-2017, 01:34 PM - 1 Like   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Curious what conditions cause this? I have K-1 and 28-105 and have never seen this issue. Possible I do not shoot in the range that causes the issue or possibly different firmware?
It is caused by equal & opposite forces: as the mirror and shutter accelerate in one direction, the camera moves a tiny bit in the other direction. It's like a gentler version of recoil while firing a gun. Maybe not all K-1's have the vibration problem to the same degree because of subtle, random differences in shutter mechanisms.

It's only shutter speeds centered around 1/125 that show the vibration. In faster exposures the photo is finished before any movement is visible. In slower exposures the vibration phase is a smaller fraction of the entire exposure and not as noticeable.

P.S. This is not Doom. Other non-Pentax brands have similar issues. There are workarounds. I'm just trying to figure out which workaround is best for different situations.
11-16-2017, 01:51 PM   #7
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Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation. I wonder if shooters stance and grip have an impact on this as well? Or tripod use? I have heard of this before but never experienced it myself.
11-16-2017, 03:27 PM   #8
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As mentioned in the other pertinent threads, some have eliminated 28-105 shutter shock by affixing a battery grip to the bottom of the K-1. Perhaps this is why I have never noticed this since I always shoot with a grip.

11-16-2017, 03:53 PM   #9
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I almost always shoot hand held w/o a grip and I never noticed anything like this on the 28-105. It really appears to be mainly a problem on tripods.
11-16-2017, 04:05 PM   #10
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I have a lot of handheld shots exhibiting this issue on my K1 when using the 28-105. Keeping out of the 1/60-1/200 shutter speed range seems to solve the problem. I recently got a battery grip for my K1 and I am going to test as to whether the added weight helps with the issue. Definitely a resonate frequency issue. Easily worked around.
11-16-2017, 08:31 PM   #11
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Very interesting. Anyone had this issue with other light lenses like, maybe a 50mm.


11-16-2017, 08:47 PM   #12
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I've only seen it with the DFA 28-105. Not even the minuscule DA 40 seems to produce it, though my testing hasn't been extensive.
11-16-2017, 11:49 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
Does ES cause extra noise or reduced dynamic range?
No, from what I've seen, done some comparisons of noise ranging from no LV, with increasing LV time, there isn't any visible additional noise due to sensor heating in LV mode, I believe sensor temperature in the K1 to be well controlled.

QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
2) Does the K-1 have a way to set a microdelay (much shorter than the 2-second timer) when using OVF?
No. This was reported but apparently not seriously considered by Ricoh. Either they are planning to add this as a selling feature for the next model, or they don't care.

QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
Unfortunately, the ES also turns off shake reduction, so it's not for full time use.
... yes, that can be annoying. From experiments, part of the blur observed with DFA28-105 is due to small camera motion also induced by mirror and shutter (kinetic energy from moving parts has to go somewhere...) because the DFA28-105 is very light weight, SR is not as good as ES to avoid blur, but I found SR to reduce the effect of mirror and shutter induced motion. Now having SR permanently switched on helps, I certain don't get the sharpest images with shutter speeds from 1/30th to 1/200th but with SR On the blur is still well controlled.
11-17-2017, 12:01 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
I have a lot of handheld shots exhibiting this issue on my K1 when using the 28-105. Keeping out of the 1/60-1/200 shutter speed range seems to solve the problem.
How are you holding the lens when you use it, and encounter the issue?

I am curious as to what part of the camera moves when shutter shock occurs; it sees like if you are holding it firmly, then the camera shouldn't be able to move appreciably. However, I have noticed in the past on a K-5 that I would get more initial blur from handholding and SR on with the FA 31 than with other lenses. In that case, it seemed that the length of the lens, and associated increased effect of slight angular movement of the lens, might be a factor. It didn't seem to happen with shorter lenses. But an additional factor was that the moving barrel of the FA31 affected my grip -- mostly on the camera itself, not holding the lens at all -- and that allowed more movement to occur.
11-17-2017, 07:55 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
How are you holding the lens when you use it, and encounter the issue?

I am curious as to what part of the camera moves when shutter shock occurs; it sees like if you are holding it firmly, then the camera shouldn't be able to move appreciably. However, I have noticed in the past on a K-5 that I would get more initial blur from handholding and SR on with the FA 31 than with other lenses. In that case, it seemed that the length of the lens, and associated increased effect of slight angular movement of the lens, might be a factor. It didn't seem to happen with shorter lenses. But an additional factor was that the moving barrel of the FA31 affected my grip -- mostly on the camera itself, not holding the lens at all -- and that allowed more movement to occur.
This shake issue is internal to the camera. I personally think the sensor moves a bit as it as a resonant frequency is hit during the exposure cycle. What I see is a faint ghost image. Easily visible when zooming in. I cannot see it on the camera display. That image looks nice and sharp.

Since resonant frequency changes as the mass changes, I am hoping that adding the battery grip will alleviate the problem. If it doesn't, I will simply watch my shutter speeds.
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