Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-04-2017, 05:41 AM   #1
Senior Member




Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: St. Gallen
Posts: 139
Great Video from CameraVille: D850 v.s. K-1

Pls take a look to the following video;

The K-1 is much better in High-ISO Area ;-)

12-04-2017, 08:21 AM - 1 Like   #2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
Interesting conclusion but is the K1 really better at high ISO and does it really matter? What happens when you keep ISO at base and 'underexpose' and use pp to bring back image?

From what I have seen, third party comparison raws, there does not seem to be an awful lot to choose between the two using the standard capture but for those times when pixel shift can be used then there is a (to me) worthwhile jump in IQ. Comparisons are difficult unless made side by side at the same time with the same glass and also further complicated by comparing more MP against less MP - will you be upscaling or downscaling to match size and most important can you really see the difference in a print

Image comparison: Digital Photography Review

I have to confess I come from a Nikon background and am a fan (not a fanbois though!) - but I love my 645Z more than I ever loved my D800E.

Both the K1 and the D850 are fantastic cameras and if I was starting from scratch with no legacy glass or other considerations I think it would be a hard choice to make which system to buy into
12-04-2017, 08:22 AM   #3
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 18,072
It wasn't clear to me if he compared SOOC jpgs or RAW files. Does anyone know? Resampling the 850 files down to 36mp would result in lower noise right? I'm a Pentax fan, but I'm not sure that he is being entirely fair.
12-04-2017, 08:44 AM   #4
Veteran Member
aleonx3's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,996
QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
It wasn't clear to me if he compared SOOC jpgs or RAW files. Does anyone know? Resampling the 850 files down to 36mp would result in lower noise right? I'm a Pentax fan, but I'm not sure that he is being entirely fair.
The files compared are NEF (Nikon) and DNG (Pentax) raw files.

12-04-2017, 08:51 AM   #5
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 18,072
QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
The files compared are NEF (Nikon) and DNG (Pentax) raw files.
Thanks. I couldn't see the details in screen well enough on my device. I appreciate it. The comments he made at one point made me ask.
12-04-2017, 08:55 AM - 1 Like   #6
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
My assumption was that he must compare raw otherwise it makes a nonsense out of testing. Resampling should help to disguise noise.

But comparisons should be properly studied - should the raw data be handled individually to get the best out of each image or should it be left as is SOOC. Attached a quick comparison without any intervention in post by me, sharpening default ACR. Nikon D850 reduced to match K1 pixel count long edge. If you were to just judge on this then the left image (850) shows more resolution than the centre (K1) but the right most image shows best resolution and lowest noise. D850 noise is mainly luminance whereas there is a lot more colour noise in the standard K1 image and the image appreciably softer.
Attached Images
 
12-04-2017, 09:23 AM - 1 Like   #7
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 36,676
I have to say, before i got a K-1 I would have just said, "I always shoot at the lowest ISO possible so high ISO performance isn't really relevant to me."
Yet two nights ago I was out with the K-1 shooting mindlessly at 1600 ISO, which I would never do without a K-5 or K-3 and I like the images.
So seeing these comparisons just tells me, no SR, no pixel shift, not as good high ISO performance, I'd be taking my D850 back as well.

I have my k-3 that will give me more resolution in the area of the crop sensor than a D850, So for many images I really don't need a D850 for that. I depend on my K-1 for low light exposures as its at least a 2 stop advantage over my K-3. So where exactly would a D850 fit in? A compromise camera to replace both I guess. But what compriises. No WR. No SR, no Pixel Shift, 7 FPS instead of 8 on my K-3, Lower density pixels for birding. Way too many compromises compared to what i'm using and it costs more than my K-1 and K-3 combined. For me, it's just not acceptable.

After being convinced this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and thinking it might be my dream camera, I have to say... I was had. Good thing i didn't buy one. Well at it's price, buying one was never an issue. but it's still a good thing.

---------- Post added 12-04-17 at 11:30 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
My assumption was that he must compare raw otherwise it makes a nonsense out of testing. Resampling should help to disguise noise.

But comparisons should be properly studied - should the raw data be handled individually to get the best out of each image or should it be left as is SOOC. Attached a quick comparison without any intervention in post by me, sharpening default ACR. Nikon D850 reduced to match K1 pixel count long edge. If you were to just judge on this then the left image (850) shows more resolution than the centre (K1) but the right most image shows best resolution and lowest noise. D850 noise is mainly luminance whereas there is a lot more colour noise in the standard K1 image and the image appreciably softer.
Look at the area , over and beside the window in the PEF file. The PEF image is so much cleaner it's ridiculous. Twice the resolution for half the price. Funny how two people can look at the same images and come to such different conclusions.

Last edited by normhead; 12-04-2017 at 10:09 AM.
12-04-2017, 09:37 AM   #8
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 792
But pixel shift when applicable just makes the comparison unfair.

12-04-2017, 09:48 AM - 1 Like   #9
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 36,676
QuoteOriginally posted by shardulm Quote
But pixel shift when applicable just makes the comparison unfair.
Why?
Because one camera has a feature the other one does't? So you want to strip one camera of something it does better than the other. How does that improve the comparison? The issue here is you can produce a much better high ISO image with a K-1 than you can with a D850. Unfair is completely useless concept. This is love and war.

This is like kids on the playground. If you can't win the game straight up, make up reasons why what the other team does shouldn't count.

Next time someone tells me Canikon have better AF I'll just say, "That's unfair, only comparisons that don't use the AF system should count." You can win any comparison by structuring the rules so you win.
12-04-2017, 09:50 AM   #10
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
....Look at the area , over and beside the window in the PEF file. The PEF image is so much cleaner it's ridiculous. Twice the resolution for half the price. Funny how two people can look at the same images and come to such different conclusions.
No we reached the same conclusion the PEF is better it has to be as it is the Pixel Shift image. But Pixel Shift not really that useful for every subject ideally we want a single exposure without sensor jiggling and that would be a Fovean sensor and sadly Sigma seems to control that so maybe no go for others
12-04-2017, 10:06 AM - 1 Like   #11
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 36,676
QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
No we reached the same conclusion the PEF is better it has to be as it is the Pixel Shift image. But Pixel Shift not really that useful for every subject ideally we want a single exposure without sensor jiggling and that would be a Fovean sensor and sadly Sigma seems to control that so maybe no go for others
Then the issue becomes, to make the comparison of images when pixel shift is not available, you need to take that type of picture. It looks to me like the line resolution of the middle K-1 image produced some type of colour moire that would be heavily dependant on the spacing of the lines that make up the picture. It could be the combination of pixel density produced that affect on your DNG file. it's also might be possible to create the same effect on the D850 with different line spacing. Whether that would be there in any real world image where pixel shift isn't possible is highly debatable and could probably be greatly reduced using the built in filter.

For the images you presented you can do better with a K-1. For the images you didn't present, let's not jump to conclusions. The D850 may be better, but possibly not. We won't know until we see that type of image. And it is still twice the cost, so you still even if its better have to decide if the degree to which it's better is worth giving up $2000 to spend on lenses. Can you get a better image with a D850 and no lens than you can with a K-1 and Zeiss macro 100 T? I doubt it.

Last edited by normhead; 12-04-2017 at 10:12 AM.
12-04-2017, 10:33 AM - 1 Like   #12
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
...
For the images you presented you can do better with a K-1. For the images you didn't present, let's not jump to conclusions. The D850 may be better, but possibly not. We won't know until we see that type of image. And it is still twice the cost, so you still even if its better have to decide if the degree to which it's better is worth giving up $2000 to spend on lenses. Can you get a better image with a D850 and no lens than you can with a K-1 and Zeiss macro 100 T? I doubt it.
It seems to me that you are missing the facts as presented in an apparant defence of Pentax. There is no disagreement that Pixel Shift can work its magic on static subjects very well indeed - this applies equally to Olympus and Sony pixel shift. and the K1 pixel shift does produce a better resolved image at 100% view in the editor.

It is wrong to suggest that images not presented as there were the original comparisons of non pixel shift with both cameras this indicated quite clearly what you would expect in the field comparing each system (camera and lens combination). As stated earlier comparing two different MP count bodies with two different lenses and not treating the data appropriately (and differently!) for each is problematic.
12-04-2017, 02:57 PM - 1 Like   #13
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 8,045
Comparing sensors is pretty much useless: the difference between those sensors sony, pentax, nikon 36Mp, 42Mp and 45Mp is ne-gli-gi-ble negligible. At this point in image IQ, what makes a difference can be brand name (very important), lens selection (important) and autofocus. Recently, I've been asked why I'm still shooting with K1 (asked by Nikon user) and my answer is simple: I can't see a difference in IQ, I would benefit from better NIKON AF but I can't justify to spend $7K on switching from Pentax K1 to Nikon D850 to get a few more AF keepers.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 12-04-2017 at 07:02 PM.
12-04-2017, 03:30 PM   #14
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 792
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Why?
Because one camera has a feature the other one does't? So you want to strip one camera of something it does better than the other. How does that improve the comparison? The issue here is you can produce a much better high ISO image with a K-1 than you can with a D850. Unfair is completely useless concept. This is love and war.

This is like kids on the playground. If you can't win the game straight up, make up reasons why what the other team does shouldn't count.

Next time someone tells me Canikon have better AF I'll just say, "That's unfair, only comparisons that don't use the AF system should count." You can win any comparison by structuring the rules so you win.
Norm, I was trying to be compassionate (pity) to d850 when I said that. But it did not go quiet right. I agree with you there. The k-1 out of the box high ISO raw images wipe the d850 off the table as it is. And I think the pixel shift is going to keep the tables turned for a while for non-IBIS bodies in general. I was not stripping K-1 of its features and neither was I trying to favor d850. I love my K-1s down to the T. I just feel good about this video.
12-04-2017, 04:25 PM   #15
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
QuoteOriginally posted by shardulm Quote
.... The k-1 out of the box high ISO raw images wipe the d850 off the table as it is....
Obviously so when Pixel Shift applied, however that is not the case as far as I can see with standard images.

However If you are referring to high ISO being significantly better would you care to share your image sources and the objective testing comparing cameras?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, camera and lens, day, drawings, dslr, full frame, full-frame, image, images, iso, k-1, k-3, k1, line, noise, pentax k-1, photgraphy, photography, pixel, problematic, resolution, results, shift, video
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Upgrading" decision, Pentax 645Z or Nikon D850(810) Pablo Villegas Pentax Medium Format 63 07-29-2018 04:44 AM
Nikon D850: New FX-format digital SLR camera coming soon. interested_observer Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 301 12-18-2017 09:05 AM
DPReview High ISO Noise D850 vs K-1 ShaunW Pentax DSLR Discussion 29 10-05-2017 01:58 PM
NIKON D810 out of production - D850 coming? D1N0 Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 74 02-21-2017 04:23 AM
Nikon D850 Bunch Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 7 01-11-2016 02:25 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:44 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top