New K-1 disappointment

pschlute · 12-18-2017, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Maybe try some shots with bean bag on a masonry wall to eliminate any tripod related concerns? This will tell you if the 'pod is up to the task.

I use a series three Gitzo tripod and head. it is certainly up to the task. There is something about the shutter shock which causes the tripod to resonate, although I only have noticed it with a "footed" long lens. The same combination held firmly down on a granite kitchen worktop shows no shutter induced blur at all. my solution is to use LV ES when on a tripod and the problem goes away. I will not be buying the 28-105 lens as it seems particularly susceptible to handheld shutter shock.

I think it would be useful for any forum members who get handheld shutter shock when using a different lens from the 28-105 can add to this thread. So far I don't recall any having posted such complaints.

**UncleVanya** · 12-18-2017, 09:19 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pschlute

I use a series three Gitzo tripod and head. it is certainly up to the task. There is something about the shutter shock which causes the tripod to resonate, although I only have noticed it with a "footed" long lens. The same combination held firmly down on a granite kitchen worktop shows no shutter induced blur at all. my solution is to use LV ES when on a tripod and the problem goes away. I will not be buying the 28-105 lens as it seems particularly susceptible to handheld shutter shock.

I think it would be useful for any forum members who get handheld shutter shock when using a different lens from the 28-105 can add to this thread. So far I don't recall any having posted such complaints.

My comment was meant for the OP who expressed some concern about his tripod. I think your info is helpful, but the OP didn't seem sure about his.

pschlute · 12-18-2017, 10:20 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by UncleVanya

My comment was meant for the OP who expressed some concern about his tripod. I think your info is helpful, but the OP didn't seem sure about his.

Yes I did realise you were advising the OP. My first action when i noticed the shutter shock was to invest in a top notch tripod. Imagine my reaction when it made no difference ! Hey ho

I know we are largely repeating ourselves from other threads on this subject, but there is clearly a resonance being given off by the first curtain that is powerful enough to cause problems with even the best tripods. We all know shutter shock is not new, but what intrigues me is that some users experience it handheld too (I don't). This is why I think it is important for anyone who suffers from it handheld with lenses other than the 28-105 to add to this thread.

Pen-A · 12-18-2017, 10:23 AM

A few shots @ 28mm with my new 28-105, handheld:

(f/8, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on)

(f/5.6, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on)

(f/8, ISO100, 1/50s, ES on)

No issues yet.. I haven´t tried with a tripod though.

awscreo · 12-18-2017, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Pen-A

A few shots @ 28mm with my new 28-105, handheld:

(f/8, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on)

(f/5.6, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on)

(f/8, ISO100, 1/50s, ES on)

No issues yet.. I haven´t tried with a tripod though.

I see a lot less shutter shock at 1/160, I personally see the worst effect on anything between 1/50 to 1/125, that's where blur is most obvious in my shots. Thanks for sharing though, I'm thinking of maybe making a thread where people can share their images in 1/30 to 1/200 shots and we can try to see what actual percentage of people experience the issue, maybe it'll even help Pentax to fix it in m2 version in future)

pschlute · 12-18-2017, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Pen-A

A few shots @ 28mm with my new 28-105, handheld:

It would help greatly if you could link to pictures where we can view at 100 %

stevebrot · 12-18-2017, 12:24 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Maybe try some shots with bean bag on a masonry wall to eliminate any tripod related concerns? This will tell you if the 'pod is up to the task.

No...we must go with the flow. If a user has soft photos from their K-1, it must be shutter shock. There can be no other possibilities.

Steve

(...wipes the kool aid from his beard...)

Pen-A · 12-18-2017, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by pschlute

It would help greatly if you could link to pictures where we can view at 100 %

Sure it would. Sorry, I got no full size pics online.. I guess you just have to take my word for it that they are Sharp

.

All I can do is link this 1600px wide first shot:

Nature

**sibyrnes** · 12-18-2017, 05:04 PM

Quote:

we'd need all owners to shoot few shots hand held at 28mm and within a certain shutter range and see if what percentage of people had the issue

Here's one shot at 1/125 handheld, 28mm. i can't think of any logical reason why shutter shock would be more visible at 28mm than other focal lengths.

awscreo · 12-18-2017, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by sibyrnes

Here's one shot at 1/125 handheld, 28mm. i can't think of any logical reason why shutter shock would be more visible at 28mm than other focal lengths.

Isn't shutter shock basically a vibration that causes the blurring effect? If you're extending the lens, it might not be vibrating as much, or changes the pattern that's less visible.

Is there a larger res of that image available for checking the fine detail for blur? Or maybe you could post a close up screenshot? Hard to judge from smaller res files, 36mp downsized to lower res wouldn't show shutter shock effects.

johnkrumm · 12-18-2017, 05:18 PM

In my experience 1/125 definitely has a chance of leading to shutter shock with my K1. Might even be the sweet spot, or maybe 1/100. But it doesn't seem to happen every time, which is odd, so it makes me think that maybe the SR doesn't always work right at that speed. Maybe it tries to correct for shake and can't quite do it sometimes. I have many really sharp shots at 1/13 of a second, less at 1/100 unless shooting live view.

Regarding the 28-105, I rented it and sent it back after using it for a while. Just had trouble focusing and getting sharp shots. Many people rave about it, so I could have had a bad copy.

**sibyrnes** · 12-18-2017, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by awscreo

Is there a larger res of that image available for checking the fine detail for blur? Or maybe you could post a close up screenshot? Hard to judge from smaller res files, 36mp downsized to lower res wouldn't show shutter shock effects.

I don't know. If you can't see shutter shock on the image I posted then is it really a problem? A hand held shot will NEVER be as sharp as one shot with a tripod. When I am concerned about the kind of sharpness that holds up to pixel peeping I use live view, ES and manual focus with the camera on a good tripod.

I will not argue the fact that some of you are experiencing what you call shutter shock, it is just something I have no problem with.

awscreo · 12-18-2017, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by sibyrnes

I don't know. If you can't see shutter shock on the image I posted then is it really a problem? A hand held shot will NEVER be as sharp as one shot with a tripod. When I am concerned about the kind of sharpness that holds up to pixel peeping I use live view, ES and manual focus with the camera on a good tripod.

I will not argue the fact that some of you are experiencing what you call shutter shock, it is just something I have no problem with.

I see your point, however I do print and sell some stuff, and critical focus is important to me on anything larger than 8x10. I personally can't see much difference between 1/250 shot and a tripod shot most of the time, but I definitely see blur in the range I've provided. I do shoot mostly on tripod though, so I've learned to live with the effect.

harpoh · 12-19-2017, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by rawr

Seems a good time to re-post a link to the Nikon D800 Technical Guide

Didn't read it, but I think you're referring to that camera's being prone to SS, too? Does the D810 cope with that problem? Maybe too early to tell for the D850. Anyway, I'm not considering to jump ship, or am I? No, that'll be some 10 grand (with good glass).

Originally posted by redpit

But characterizing the K-1 dissapointing based only on this "special feature" (that I haven't seen myself but I believe those who say they experisnce it) is at least a miss...

What you call a "special feature" seems to be affecting not only the new Pentax 28-105 but also my Tamrons 70-200 and 90 Macro (handheld and on both a tripod and a beanbag) under relatively normal conditions. Sorry, but I can't think of any expression other than a HUGE disappointment - without any intention of bashing Pentax , a brand I've been very satisfied with for more than 10 years...

Originally posted by sibyrnes

Yes, I am very happy with my 28-105. Here's a hand held 1/100 sec shot that I posted in another thread:

Thanks, this is something I was expecting to get.

Originally posted by awscreo

Your 70-200 comment made it seem that you are using the shutter button to af (half pressing?). In this situation it might be better to use the af button on the back to focus and shutter release to take a shot, that way if you've acquired focus you won't lose it by accidentally touching the shutter button. Maybe you're already using this method and I'm mistaken, apologies in advance) also, using 9 point af mode sometimes gives better results, at least with my Tamron 70-200. I've noticed that my screw drive lenses aren't as precise as my newer lenses with silent af motors, and Tamron gives me the most issues probably due to a shallow dof. Sometimes it's difficult to focus on the eye in portraiture.

As I said, I am using the AF button with AF deactivated on shutter release (no apology needed, of course). I have used both single and 9 points. To repeat myself: the 70-200 works flawlessly on my K-3ii. Is the K-1 known to have problems with screw drive lenses? Never heard of...

Originally posted by awscreo

and most disappointing is my latest purchase - dfa 15-30

Good to hear! This one is on my road map, too. And don't you dare use the word 'disappointing', it's a special feature ;-)

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Maybe try some shots with bean bag on a masonry wall to eliminate any tripod related concerns? This will tell you if the 'pod is up to the task.

I always carry a bean bag when on tour and I tried it with the 28-105, to no avail.

Originally posted by stevebrot

No...we must go with the flow. If a user has soft photos from their K-1, it must be shutter shock. There can be no other possibilities.

I have experienced similar results handheld and with tripod/beanbag, SR on/off (handheld only) with 3 lenses. Am I really jumping to conclusions?

Today I'll return the combo and ask for a replacement as I may have just got a faulty copy and as I still want to use the K-1. A probable solution could be skipping the 28-105 and getting the 24-70 instead, which doesn't seem to be prone to SS. On the other hand, this lens has been not so enthusiastically reported on by some users. And maybe the battery grip (which I'm going to get anyway) could help, too. It's been said elsewhere on PF that it makes SS completely disappear even with the 28-105. Any observations to the contrary?

Cheers
harpoh

redpit · 12-19-2017, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by harpoh

What you call a "special feature" seems to be affecting not only the new Pentax 28-105 but also my Tamrons 70-200 and 90 Macro (handheld and on both a tripod and a beanbag) under relatively normal conditions. Sorry, but I can't think of any expression other than a HUGE disappointment - without any intention of bashing Pentax , a brand I've been very satisfied with for more than 10 years...

Good to hear! This one is on my road map, too. And don't you dare use the word 'disappointing', it's a special feature ;-)

Thank you for your answer. Really appreciated.

12-18-2017, 05:26 PM	#42
sibyrnes Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 447	Originally posted by awscreo Is there a larger res of that image available for checking the fine detail for blur? Or maybe you could post a close up screenshot? Hard to judge from smaller res files, 36mp downsized to lower res wouldn't show shutter shock effects. I don't know. If you can't see shutter shock on the image I posted then is it really a problem? A hand held shot will NEVER be as sharp as one shot with a tripod. When I am concerned about the kind of sharpness that holds up to pixel peeping I use live view, ES and manual focus with the camera on a good tripod. I will not argue the fact that some of you are experiencing what you call shutter shock, it is just something I have no problem with. Last edited by sibyrnes; 12-18-2017 at 05:31 PM.

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12-18-2017, 08:57 AM	#31
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,198	Originally posted by UncleVanya Maybe try some shots with bean bag on a masonry wall to eliminate any tripod related concerns? This will tell you if the 'pod is up to the task. I use a series three Gitzo tripod and head. it is certainly up to the task. There is something about the shutter shock which causes the tripod to resonate, although I only have noticed it with a "footed" long lens. The same combination held firmly down on a granite kitchen worktop shows no shutter induced blur at all. my solution is to use LV ES when on a tripod and the problem goes away. I will not be buying the 28-105 lens as it seems particularly susceptible to handheld shutter shock. I think it would be useful for any forum members who get handheld shutter shock when using a different lens from the 28-105 can add to this thread. So far I don't recall any having posted such complaints.

12-18-2017, 09:19 AM - 1 Like	#32
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,398	Originally posted by pschlute I use a series three Gitzo tripod and head. it is certainly up to the task. There is something about the shutter shock which causes the tripod to resonate, although I only have noticed it with a "footed" long lens. The same combination held firmly down on a granite kitchen worktop shows no shutter induced blur at all. my solution is to use LV ES when on a tripod and the problem goes away. I will not be buying the 28-105 lens as it seems particularly susceptible to handheld shutter shock. I think it would be useful for any forum members who get handheld shutter shock when using a different lens from the 28-105 can add to this thread. So far I don't recall any having posted such complaints. My comment was meant for the OP who expressed some concern about his tripod. I think your info is helpful, but the OP didn't seem sure about his.

12-18-2017, 10:20 AM - 1 Like	#33
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,198	Originally posted by UncleVanya My comment was meant for the OP who expressed some concern about his tripod. I think your info is helpful, but the OP didn't seem sure about his. Yes I did realise you were advising the OP. My first action when i noticed the shutter shock was to invest in a top notch tripod. Imagine my reaction when it made no difference ! Hey ho I know we are largely repeating ourselves from other threads on this subject, but there is clearly a resonance being given off by the first curtain that is powerful enough to cause problems with even the best tripods. We all know shutter shock is not new, but what intrigues me is that some users experience it handheld too (I don't). This is why I think it is important for anyone who suffers from it handheld with lenses other than the 28-105 to add to this thread.

12-18-2017, 10:23 AM	#34
Pen-A Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 675	A few shots @ 28mm with my new 28-105, handheld: (f/8, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on) (f/5.6, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on) (f/8, ISO100, 1/50s, ES on) No issues yet.. I haven´t tried with a tripod though.

12-18-2017, 10:51 AM	#35
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Originally posted by Pen-A A few shots @ 28mm with my new 28-105, handheld: (f/8, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on) (f/5.6, ISO100, 1/160s, SR on) (f/8, ISO100, 1/50s, ES on) No issues yet.. I haven´t tried with a tripod though. I see a lot less shutter shock at 1/160, I personally see the worst effect on anything between 1/50 to 1/125, that's where blur is most obvious in my shots. Thanks for sharing though, I'm thinking of maybe making a thread where people can share their images in 1/30 to 1/200 shots and we can try to see what actual percentage of people experience the issue, maybe it'll even help Pentax to fix it in m2 version in future)

12-18-2017, 11:23 AM	#36
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,198	Originally posted by Pen-A A few shots @ 28mm with my new 28-105, handheld: It would help greatly if you could link to pictures where we can view at 100 %

12-18-2017, 12:24 PM - 1 Like	#37
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by UncleVanya Maybe try some shots with bean bag on a masonry wall to eliminate any tripod related concerns? This will tell you if the 'pod is up to the task. No...we must go with the flow. If a user has soft photos from their K-1, it must be shutter shock. There can be no other possibilities. Steve (...wipes the kool aid from his beard...)

12-18-2017, 12:25 PM	#38
Pen-A Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 675	Originally posted by pschlute It would help greatly if you could link to pictures where we can view at 100 % Sure it would. Sorry, I got no full size pics online.. I guess you just have to take my word for it that they are Sharp . All I can do is link this 1600px wide first shot: Nature

12-18-2017, 05:17 PM	#40
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Originally posted by sibyrnes Here's one shot at 1/125 handheld, 28mm. i can't think of any logical reason why shutter shock would be more visible at 28mm than other focal lengths. Isn't shutter shock basically a vibration that causes the blurring effect? If you're extending the lens, it might not be vibrating as much, or changes the pattern that's less visible. Is there a larger res of that image available for checking the fine detail for blur? Or maybe you could post a close up screenshot? Hard to judge from smaller res files, 36mp downsized to lower res wouldn't show shutter shock effects.

12-18-2017, 05:18 PM	#41
johnkrumm Senior Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Duluth, MN Posts: 141	In my experience 1/125 definitely has a chance of leading to shutter shock with my K1. Might even be the sweet spot, or maybe 1/100. But it doesn't seem to happen every time, which is odd, so it makes me think that maybe the SR doesn't always work right at that speed. Maybe it tries to correct for shake and can't quite do it sometimes. I have many really sharp shots at 1/13 of a second, less at 1/100 unless shooting live view. Regarding the 28-105, I rented it and sent it back after using it for a while. Just had trouble focusing and getting sharp shots. Many people rave about it, so I could have had a bad copy.

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12-18-2017, 07:01 PM	#43
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Originally posted by sibyrnes I don't know. If you can't see shutter shock on the image I posted then is it really a problem? A hand held shot will NEVER be as sharp as one shot with a tripod. When I am concerned about the kind of sharpness that holds up to pixel peeping I use live view, ES and manual focus with the camera on a good tripod. I will not argue the fact that some of you are experiencing what you call shutter shock, it is just something I have no problem with. I see your point, however I do print and sell some stuff, and critical focus is important to me on anything larger than 8x10. I personally can't see much difference between 1/250 shot and a tripod shot most of the time, but I definitely see blur in the range I've provided. I do shoot mostly on tripod though, so I've learned to live with the effect.

12-19-2017, 01:46 AM	#44
harpoh Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 28 Original Poster	Originally posted by rawr Seems a good time to re-post a link to the Nikon D800 Technical Guide Didn't read it, but I think you're referring to that camera's being prone to SS, too? Does the D810 cope with that problem? Maybe too early to tell for the D850. Anyway, I'm not considering to jump ship, or am I? No, that'll be some 10 grand (with good glass). Originally posted by redpit But characterizing the K-1 dissapointing based only on this "special feature" (that I haven't seen myself but I believe those who say they experisnce it) is at least a miss... What you call a "special feature" seems to be affecting not only the new Pentax 28-105 but also my Tamrons 70-200 and 90 Macro (handheld and on both a tripod and a beanbag) under relatively normal conditions. Sorry, but I can't think of any expression other than a HUGE disappointment - without any intention of bashing Pentax , a brand I've been very satisfied with for more than 10 years... Originally posted by sibyrnes Yes, I am very happy with my 28-105. Here's a hand held 1/100 sec shot that I posted in another thread: Thanks, this is something I was expecting to get. Originally posted by awscreo Your 70-200 comment made it seem that you are using the shutter button to af (half pressing?). In this situation it might be better to use the af button on the back to focus and shutter release to take a shot, that way if you've acquired focus you won't lose it by accidentally touching the shutter button. Maybe you're already using this method and I'm mistaken, apologies in advance) also, using 9 point af mode sometimes gives better results, at least with my Tamron 70-200. I've noticed that my screw drive lenses aren't as precise as my newer lenses with silent af motors, and Tamron gives me the most issues probably due to a shallow dof. Sometimes it's difficult to focus on the eye in portraiture. As I said, I am using the AF button with AF deactivated on shutter release (no apology needed, of course). I have used both single and 9 points. To repeat myself: the 70-200 works flawlessly on my K-3ii. Is the K-1 known to have problems with screw drive lenses? Never heard of... Originally posted by awscreo and most disappointing is my latest purchase - dfa 15-30 Good to hear! This one is on my road map, too. And don't you dare use the word 'disappointing', it's a special feature ;-) Originally posted by UncleVanya Maybe try some shots with bean bag on a masonry wall to eliminate any tripod related concerns? This will tell you if the 'pod is up to the task. I always carry a bean bag when on tour and I tried it with the 28-105, to no avail. Originally posted by stevebrot No...we must go with the flow. If a user has soft photos from their K-1, it must be shutter shock. There can be no other possibilities. I have experienced similar results handheld and with tripod/beanbag, SR on/off (handheld only) with 3 lenses. Am I really jumping to conclusions? Today I'll return the combo and ask for a replacement as I may have just got a faulty copy and as I still want to use the K-1. A probable solution could be skipping the 28-105 and getting the 24-70 instead, which doesn't seem to be prone to SS. On the other hand, this lens has been not so enthusiastically reported on by some users. And maybe the battery grip (which I'm going to get anyway) could help, too. It's been said elsewhere on PF that it makes SS completely disappear even with the 28-105. Any observations to the contrary? Cheers harpoh

12-19-2017, 03:06 AM	#45
redpit Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Greece Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by harpoh What you call a "special feature" seems to be affecting not only the new Pentax 28-105 but also my Tamrons 70-200 and 90 Macro (handheld and on both a tripod and a beanbag) under relatively normal conditions. Sorry, but I can't think of any expression other than a HUGE disappointment - without any intention of bashing Pentax , a brand I've been very satisfied with for more than 10 years... Good to hear! This one is on my road map, too. And don't you dare use the word 'disappointing', it's a special feature ;-) Thank you for your answer. Really appreciated.