Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-03-2018, 11:31 PM   #121
Seb
Junior Member




Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Wuppertal, Germany
Posts: 35
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
We can all argue and justify Pentax's action all the day long. As someone with a strong business background, Ricoh isn't doing anything major to benefit the brand. Pentax barely attracts new customers if any and the current supporters, including myself, don't buy every new item the company releases. Continuing like this, the only source of revenue to continue its development would be directly through Ricoh itself which isn't financially doing well either. If you understand business operation, finance and market strategy concept, then you understand what I'm talking about. If not, you will continue to justify your non-business oriented mindset.
I can only speak for myself and I justify nothing, because I am not into business operation as you maybe are. Maybe I am completely wrong, but my impression is that the things we listed in the last couple of threats (let consumers "play" with your cams, give it to pros to use it on workshops, give it to people like Tony Northrup, maybe even give it to professors or art students to test it...) fit perfectly to your finding that Pentax barely attracts new customers. Isn't it part of business operation or strategy concept at this point to do things like that?

09-03-2018, 11:33 PM - 4 Likes   #122
Digitiser of Film
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North East of England
Posts: 20,576
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
We can all argue and justify Pentax's action all the day long. As someone with a strong business background, Ricoh isn't doing anything major to benefit the brand. Pentax barely attracts new customers if any and the current supporters, including myself, don't buy every new item the company releases. Continuing like this, the only source of revenue to continue its development would be directly through Ricoh itself which isn't financially doing well either. If you understand business operation, finance and market strategy concept, then you understand what I'm talking about. If not, you will continue to justify your non-business oriented mindset.
I'm not arguing or justifying. I'm just discussing

Personally, I wish Ricoh would do a bit more marketing. That said, taking your points above individually:

- "Ricoh isn't doing anything major to benefit the brand"

... except for developing and releasing high quality new products. Not at a prolific rate, I'll admit, but what it's releasing is mostly well-received. Indeed, the original K-1 caused something of a stir and - if online reviews and articles are to be believed - attracted numerous people to the brand, including previous critics, who recognised its capabilities for (amongst other things) landscape photography.

- "Pentax barely attracts new customers if any"

Can I ask, what's the official source of this information? Or is it merely your perception? That's fine, but see my point about the K-1 above. My perception is different than yours.

- "current supporters, including myself, don't buy every new item the company releases"

That's the same for every manufacturer of every kind of product. Many iPhone owners don't buy the latest version, or wait a couple of years to buy the outgoing model at a discounted price, for example. Nikon doesn't sell every new camera, lens and accessory to every one of its current supporters either. Indeed, that's a problem facing every player in the ILC market... People aren't upgrading their cameras and lenses as often. I know several photographers using Nikon and Canon gear that are still shooting equipment one, two or even three generations behind the current products.

- "Continuing like this, the only source of revenue to continue its development would be directly through Ricoh itself which isn't financially doing well either"

But this assumes that the Pentax division of Ricoh Imaging isn't selling enough of the products its manufacturing at prices that are profitable and sustainable for the business. I see no official data to suggest that's the case.

- "If you understand business operation, finance and market strategy concept, then you understand what I'm talking about. If not, you will continue to justify your non-business oriented mindset"

Although I've never worked in marketing specifically, I have a strong business background. Included within that was a period working as a convertible bonds analyst, reviewing company performance, strategy, finances and risk either prior to, or following, issuance of convertible bond instruments. I'd say my business credentials are OK.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the opinions and mindset of those without your particular business experience... especially when they're customers of the brand we're discussing, and our fellow members here. Not one of us, regardless of background, really knows what makes Ricoh Imaging tick. We're all just making educated guesses

Last edited by BigMackCam; 09-04-2018 at 12:23 AM.
09-04-2018, 12:51 AM - 1 Like   #123
Seb
Junior Member




Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Wuppertal, Germany
Posts: 35
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Furthermore, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the opinions and mindset of those without your particular business experience... especially when they're customers of the brand we're discussing, and our fellow members here. Not one of us, regardless of background, really knows what makes Ricoh Imaging tick. We're all just making educated guesses
That is a very good point! And it might give us an idea how Pentax marketing works. Back in 2011 I wanted to get rid of my Olympus E510 and a good friend gave me a Pentax K-10D to use it for a couple of days. I was convinced (still today I really value his opinion in terms of photography and gear) and bought a (used) K-7. It can be a strategy to convince a few people entirely to make them convince friends or peers. It seems that this works out perfectly for Fujifilm. When ever I meet a Fuji guy it is like talking to a missionary

The downside is: If my friend hadn't given me his K-10 I most likely would be in a different camp now.

Last edited by Seb; 09-04-2018 at 06:47 AM. Reason: grammatical stuff - still learning ;)
09-04-2018, 01:52 AM - 2 Likes   #124
Moderator
Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
MarkJerling's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,391
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
- "If you understand business operation, finance and market strategy concept, then you understand what I'm talking about. If not, you will continue to justify your non-business oriented mindset"
Of course, this about a company with $18,000,000,000 revenue p/a.

09-04-2018, 05:19 AM   #125
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 307
QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Of course, this about a company with $18,000,000,000 revenue p/a.
Yeah, look them up to see how much they have downsized and let go of employees due to their poor sale. I even talked with one of their reps during a IT conference and she confirmed their low sale on their major business which is their photocopy business. Again, if the camera market doesn't generate decent revenue, their photocopy and healthcare secrion are doing poorly, please educate me where is Ricoh's other high earning income that they can use to invest into Pentax development?

---------- Post added 09-04-18 at 05:23 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I'm not arguing or justifying. I'm just discussing

Personally, I wish Ricoh would do a bit more marketing. That said, taking your points above individually:

- "Ricoh isn't doing anything major to benefit the brand"

... except for developing and releasing high quality new products. Not at a prolific rate, I'll admit, but what it's releasing is mostly well-received. Indeed, the original K-1 caused something of a stir and - if online reviews and articles are to be believed - attracted numerous people to the brand, including previous critics, who recognised its capabilities for (amongst other things) landscape photography.

- "Pentax barely attracts new customers if any"

Can I ask, what's the official source of this information? Or is it merely your perception? That's fine, but see my point about the K-1 above. My perception is different than yours.

- "current supporters, including myself, don't buy every new item the company releases"

That's the same for every manufacturer of every kind of product. Many iPhone owners don't buy the latest version, or wait a couple of years to buy the outgoing model at a discounted price, for example. Nikon doesn't sell every new camera, lens and accessory to every one of its current supporters either. Indeed, that's a problem facing every player in the ILC market... People aren't upgrading their cameras and lenses as often. I know several photographers using Nikon and Canon gear that are still shooting equipment one, two or even three generations behind the current products.

- "Continuing like this, the only source of revenue to continue its development would be directly through Ricoh itself which isn't financially doing well either"

But this assumes that the Pentax division of Ricoh Imaging isn't selling enough of the products its manufacturing at prices that are profitable and sustainable for the business. I see no official data to suggest that's the case.

- "If you understand business operation, finance and market strategy concept, then you understand what I'm talking about. If not, you will continue to justify your non-business oriented mindset"

Although I've never worked in marketing specifically, I have a strong business background. Included within that was a period working as a convertible bonds analyst, reviewing company performance, strategy, finances and risk either prior to, or following, issuance of convertible bond instruments. I'd say my business credentials are OK.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the opinions and mindset of those without your particular business experience... especially when they're customers of the brand we're discussing and our fellow members here. Not one of us, regardless of background, really knows what makes Ricoh Imaging tick. We're all just making educated guesses
Your discussion is nothing but trying to justify the opposite of every point I highlighted. At 4% market share in Japan and continuing to shrink, compared to other brands, it should tell you a lot. You can also talk to folks at BH and Adorama if you know someone working there to inquire about Pentax Sale especially the latest ones as opposed to other brands released at the same time such as A7RIII, A7III, XH-1 etc. Pentax won't come and say they are doing poorly until it's time for them to either file a bankruptcy or if they are being bought out by another company just like last time when Ricoh bought them out from their parent company. If you are claiming you understand business, then you wouldn't ask for a written proof of the facts I mentioned.. You'd evaluate and predict the market based on all the factors I mentioned above. So clearly you don't or you are just another fanboy who won't accept the reality. As you see in my signature line, I own tons of Pentax gears in addition to owing Sony and Fuji. If you don't provide your desired company with a CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, they don't see a need to improve. Look at Sony's first A7 series and Fuji's XT-1. They were awfully slow, terrible AF and etc. People provided constructive feedback and look where they are now.

Last edited by Pentax_WA; 09-04-2018 at 05:56 AM.
09-04-2018, 05:47 AM - 3 Likes   #126
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
QuoteQuote:
You'd evaluate and predict the market based on all the factors I mentioned above. So clealy you dont. Good luck.
Maybe you could post some kind of resume, justifying your ability to proclaim yourself knowledgeable about , well anything.
09-04-2018, 06:00 AM - 4 Likes   #127
Digitiser of Film
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North East of England
Posts: 20,576
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
Your discussion is nothing but justifying your thoughts.
As is yours, but in the opposite direction. We can agree to differ, though, and hold our individual opinions, surely?

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
If you are claim you understand business, then you wouldn't need a written proof. You'd evaluate and predict the market based on all the factors I mentioned above. So clealy you dont. Good luck.
You must believe as you see fit, of course. But it's a pity you can't respect my views and accept my stated business background at face value, as I have yours.

Without citing actual data sources to support your views, that's all they are - your views. If you state them as fact in an open forum, you might reasonably expect to have them challenged (in a respectful manner, of course). And we've both provided the same amount of proof to back up our opinions... i.e. none

EDIT: I see you edited your post, but the above is still relevant. I will add, though, I'm no fanboy (a derogatory term, IMHO, but I get the gist). I shoot multiple Pentax and Sony ILCs, with a large number of AF K-mount lenses (including most of the APS-C glass you use, plus a bunch more), some mid-to-pro-level full-frame A-mount lenses, and an obscene amount of vintage manual glass (most of which I choose to shoot with Sony). I won't deny that I really like Pentax gear, but it's far from perfect, and the company frustrates me in some respects. I see different flaws with Sony, both the equipment and the corporation. I'm sure if I shot Nikon , Canon, Fuji, Olympus or Panasoniic I'd be equally balanced and realistic in my views of them. I see obvious flaws in all of those companies' equipment and business models even without owning their gear...

Good luck to you also.


Last edited by BigMackCam; 09-04-2018 at 08:56 AM.
09-04-2018, 06:41 AM - 2 Likes   #128
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Baltimore
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,383
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
We can all argue and justify Pentax's action all the day long. As someone with a strong business background, Ricoh isn't doing anything major to benefit the brand. Pentax barely attracts new customers if any and the current supporters, including myself, don't buy every new item the company releases. Continuing like this, the only source of revenue to continue its development would be directly through Ricoh itself which isn't financially doing well either. If you understand business operation, finance and market strategy concept, then you understand what I'm talking about. If not, you will continue to justify your non-business oriented mindset.
I agree with you at a base level, but then you have to factor in the Japanese-ness of all of it, which is something of a knuckle ball. To whit:
  • It's an amazingly insular society, literally and figuratively. I work closely with some Japanese who are as worldly as they come, besides those living in the west. They struggle to understand some basic stuff about the west.
  • Pentax has, apparently, a solid enough market inside Japan to satisfy them. Couple that with the above.
  • Ricoh bought Pentax for the imaging engineering, not so much as a camera unit, as I understand it. And it's a long range thing.
  • Japanese companies seem to be able to sustain in their market what Wall Street would never tolerate.


---------- Post added 09-04-18 at 09:43 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Fuji are doing it well. They have a few people responsible to collect images of Fuji users and publish a magazine to show case camera products, I think the magazine is not free, Fuji users can subscribe to receive it. Fuji also contact professional photographers who are already offering workshops and offer them to supply a set of Fuji cameras and lenses for the workshops, students can play with Fuji cameras. It's not splashy marketing, it's marketing via the backdoor, and it works.
Yes indeed! This is the sort of thing I wish Pentax would do.
09-04-2018, 07:16 AM - 2 Likes   #129
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nelson B.C.
Posts: 3,782
I think the K1 upgrade was quite good. Low cost for Ricoh, put money into the pockets of their partners, which doesn't happen in business very often and will be remembered, and is a way of building a service base. We shall see how that is used in the future. The medium format market requires a high level of service, as well as the professional market in other formats.

I think you can safely say that they aren't particularly interested in the US market.

They are selling their production, they don't have massive amounts of money tied up in stocking shelves and inventory, their market is photographers who are looking for value and performance. There are market segments they are not serving, which means they aren't spending money on, but others they are doing quite well, like the Theta, and medium format. And full frame.

The market has been massively changing, shrinking dramatically with some small corners doing well. They exist in quite a few of those corners.

The photocopier market peaked a few years ago, and has become more specialized and less volume driven. High quality color machines, which they produce and sell will never replace the volume or sales numbers that the paper producing machines in every department that existed a decade ago. In that kind of market it is survival that counts, and they have survived.

Same in the camera market. They are generating a return on investment in a remarkably fluid and changing market, and doing ok to keep up.

By the way, when they get their Image Sync stuff working, where you can change drive modes, it will force all the rest of the big guys to replicate what they are doing. Image sync v 1.x was pretty useless except to show off. Their experience in Theta, in attempting to build a community driven type of development is revolutionary for Japanese businesses, and I suspect what they are learning is going to be the future for all their products.

---------- Post added 09-04-18 at 07:21 AM ----------

>Japanese companies seem to be able to sustain in their market what Wall Street would never tolerate.

Interestingly, almost all the products I use in my business are produced by privately owned companies. The ones who are on Wall Street are on everyone's list of companies to avoid, and people are actively working to build alternatives. That town has nothing to do with building value, building markets or anything except lining their pockets, and when they screw up so badly, fleece the taxpayers pockets to bail them out.

So if some business analyst with Wall Street thinking doesn't like the way Ricoh is doing business, then that in my mind is a positive.

By the way, almost all the classic american brand names that I use in my business are being bought up by Japanese firms. Their products keep the world working. Wall Street isn't in that business anymore.
09-04-2018, 08:08 AM - 3 Likes   #130
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2010
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,912
:
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Not one of us, regardless of background, really knows what makes Ricoh Imaging tick
They do seem to like making good cameras
09-04-2018, 01:01 PM - 3 Likes   #131
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
pschlute's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,117
Ricoh is a huge company. Pentax is a tiny, tiny part of it and sits in the division known as "Other".

Ricoh may have its problems but is profitable. Indeed producing the same gross profit as Nikon in the last quarter, albeit on a much higher turnover which is not a good sign. These figures are for the company as a whole, not the camera segment. As long as Pentax remains profitable , which it was in the latest quarter Ricoh will let it do it's own thing. Risk is small, capital employed is small, and yes profit is small. It will get hardly a mention at the board meeting. I think in the current state of the camera industry that is not a bad place to be.

sources:

https://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/fy2019/p_1q.html
https://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/pdf/2019/19_1qf_c_e.pdf

Last edited by pschlute; 09-04-2018 at 01:10 PM.
09-04-2018, 01:29 PM - 2 Likes   #132
Moderator
Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
MarkJerling's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,391
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
Yeah, look them up to see how much they have downsized and let go of employees due to their poor sale. I even talked with one of their reps during a IT conference and she confirmed their low sale on their major business which is their photocopy business. Again, if the camera market doesn't generate decent revenue, their photocopy and healthcare secrion are doing poorly, please educate me where is Ricoh's other high earning income that they can use to invest into Pentax development?
This is a large conglomerate, with numerous business arms. Here by us, most of their business (which generates good profits and growth) is in IT.

It's a known fact that photocopier sales is in decline and it will continue to do so as businesses move to a paperless model. It makes sense to downsize parts of the business which are not part of their future growth areas.
For this reason, they have been growing their other businesses, divesting out of office copiers and into industrial processes and printing.

So, I'm not sure what your credentials are, but to make blanket statements which have no basis in fact is not helpful with regard to the future of Ricoh and consequently Pentax. As noted, Ricoh is an $18 billion company. I'd be very surprised if they fall over any time soon.
09-04-2018, 05:42 PM - 3 Likes   #133
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
As someone with a strong business background,
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, here, Reza.

Pretend you've ended up at a lunch table sitting next to me, and I'm the CEO of Ricoh.

I have an $18 billion company. At the height of the digital camera boom, I acquired Pentax, a small domestic company with little international presence or interest, and the market took a massive dive thereafter. The core photocopy business is under siege, and I've instructed all divisions to not acquire market share, but to keep their heads above the water. This is not a growth era, but one of sustainability. I already have an army of lawyers, MBAs, PhDs, market researchers, accountants and engineers who probably revise plans annually, even more often in crisis mode, and a mass of data on my company and my rivals you don't know about, I don't divulge it even to the shareholders.

Pitch to me with that strong business background of yours.
09-04-2018, 05:54 PM - 1 Like   #134
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,037
I would ask CEO Clackers is there a certain minimum amount of market share and development pace below which confidence starts spiraling downward, economies of scale start to be lost, and the user base goes into a terminal decline?
09-04-2018, 06:02 PM - 4 Likes   #135
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by caliscouser Quote
I would ask CEO Clackers is there a certain minimum amount of market share and development pace below which confidence starts spiraling downward, economies of scale start to be lost, and the user base goes into a terminal decline?
"Sure, my lunch companion in a shabby suit, but I would know what that amount was, and so do all my subordinates - they have realistic goals I've set them.

And it doesn't matter so much for a niche manufacturer. Leica do very well, thank you, with very little market share or new products. An educated, well-to-do market that knows what it likes buys it, especially back in Japan. Here's somebody who's just switched from Nikon to Pentax, they came from a brand with one of the biggest PR budgets in the world to little old us:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/375188-new-k-1-owner-first-picture.html

But we don't really care about the foreign markets. We don't even really have a North America organization now. We tried that, let them have a K-500 to go mass distribution in Walmarts or whatever, it didn't work, and we won't be repeating the mistake. The game we would have to play that we don't need to do back home … paying retailers upfront for display space and advertising, bribing selected YouTubers, buying massively into Google AdSense, pandering to DPR … it's a minefield we've modelled and rejected because of the poor likely returns.

Now, be a good fellow and pass the foie gras and smoked trout.

Thanks … let me pour you some more Moet."

(My Ricoh CEO has a monocle and is from Britain, for some reason. Maybe because you're originally a Liverpudlian, right? )

Last edited by clackers; 09-04-2018 at 09:34 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
business, camera, company, dslr, fuji, full frame, full-frame, ii, k-1, k1, k1 mk, market, mk, nikon, pentax, pentax k-1, pentax k1 mk ii, pentax news, pentax rumors, preview, products, ricoh, street, tony northrup
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tony Northrup picks K-1 and love from The Camera Store lithedreamer Pentax K-1 & K-1 II 25 12-25-2016 05:58 PM
The DEATH of the Consumer Camera - Tony Northrup interested_observer General Photography 72 09-10-2016 08:20 AM
K1 How to by Tony Northrup vladfrenkel Pentax Full Frame 80 08-07-2016 12:06 PM
Tony Northrup K-1 Tutorial eddaytona Pentax K-1 & K-1 II 3 07-15-2016 02:29 PM
Tony Northrup - K-1 Review lithedreamer Pentax K-1 & K-1 II 296 07-08-2016 05:41 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:18 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top