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04-24-2018, 09:41 AM - 1 Like   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
It seems dcraw has been discontinued.
The modern successor seems to be libraw.
Someone should tell David Coffin (the author). His site is active with no indication or notice that the product is not being maintained. This rumor is traceable to a post on the libraw project page July of last year. No reason was given for the assertion, though I suspect it is the fact that the last stable release was in December 2016 and that the supported camera list does not include camera models released after that date.

Normally, that would be indication that the author has either abandoned the product or is dead/incapacitated. In regards to low level RAW processing (what dcraw does) without maker-specific tweaks, the difference between processing a PEF from the K10D and one from a K-1II is nil. What is stored in the file is a large array of voltage values marshaled in a predictable pattern. Any model-dependent magic sauce is added before the file is written. Unless a maker debuts a new file type, there is no need to change any code except to fix bugs or add features. The supported camera list is a formality and is not an indication of exclusion.


Steve

(...FWIW, I have access to both dcraw and LIBRAW and strongly prefer the former...)

04-24-2018, 09:48 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michaelina2 Quote
You mean like this: Menu item "Noise Reduction" (see K-1 Mk II Manual pp 50, 55)?

It permits fine tuning (even turning off) the in-camera noise reduction feature for various ISO levels.
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Is that for RAW too, or just JPEG?
QuoteOriginally posted by aikaarska Quote
Yes, it's for jpg files. RAW should be just RAW, not cooked stuff.
There was some discussion about this a few years ago around a post by a member (Ed the Photo Universe guy) where a strong case was made that it applied to RAW on the K-3. @Michaelina2 was involved in some of those discussions at the time. I made a few changes to my settings, but was never able to substantiate his assertion. Then, as with now, the claim was made that Pentax had introduced noise reduction into the low level process stream and that it was negatively affecting detail capture.

I will see if I can find the thread.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-24-2018 at 11:01 AM.
04-24-2018, 09:49 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
You mean comparison tests? To do the right choice? This is funny, here,for many, the voice of the ambassador was enough ....
Never question authority?
04-24-2018, 09:55 AM - 2 Likes   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by aikaarska Quote
Yes, it's for jpg files. RAW should be just RAW, not cooked stuff.
But there's no such thing as "uncooked."

1. The lens cooks the photons of the scene by bending them hither and yon.
2. The sensor cooks the photons into electrons and then sprinkles noise and other artifacts on top.
3. The read-out and ADC circuitry cooks the electrons some more to make them into digital bits.

And then there's all the cooking by the RAW convertor which we'd like to ignore but does seem to have caused some of the problems discussed in this thread.

If anything, the accelerator is attempting to uncook the data to get something closer to the original, pure scene.

04-24-2018, 10:27 AM   #245
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From my reading of the Accelerator Unit as explained by Ricoh it is used when ever a frame is taken regardless of ISO setting.

Every digital image is baked by every camera brand.

It's to bad the OP did not use Dynamic Pixel-Shift. It was an ideal situation to test against the image they see a problem. Especially when their concern is details.
04-24-2018, 10:35 AM   #246
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Let's see when PEF support comes to lightroom. It is superior platform for standard pixel shift without motion correction. I will not ever use DPS feature. And no, nothing is debunked, this same thing can be replicated with similar targets every time. ISO800 image does not look better, it just has more microcontrast thanks to some form of edge sharpening in the areas which are in focus. So ISO800 shot has both cookings - blur & edge sharpen.
04-24-2018, 10:44 AM   #247
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Doesn't Lightroom have one of the worse Pixel Shift support?
QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
nothing is debunked, this same thing can be replicated with similar targets every time
No, it cannot - as I've shown.

QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
ISO800 shot has both cookings - blur & edge sharpen.
No, it does not.
04-24-2018, 11:00 AM - 3 Likes   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
But there's no such thing as "uncooked."
I think the following diagram illustrates a common view of how RAW images work: after the image data off the sensor gets some basic analog/digital conversion, the RAW file is available for use ahead of any work of the camera image processer. But that is a misreading of the whole processing pipeline.



In reality even at the very early analog/digital stage, there's a lot of data processing, filtering, NR and other tweaking likely to be happening well before the image data is handed off to the camera image processor, as illustrated by this simple Sony diagram of Exmor sensors (as used in the K-1).



It will never be possible to have a 'PRIME image processor chip' on/off, or an 'Accelerator chip' on/off, switch in the firmware, I suspect

04-24-2018, 11:08 AM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I will see if I can find the thread.
I had no luck finding the exact thread, though I did find my response with test images. Looking back, I am a little embarrassed by the effort. My conclusion at the time (Dec, 2014) was that the ISO NR function did affect RAW capture, though I would perform the testing differently today.
K-3 High ISO Noise Reduction and Loss of Detail (With Pictures!!) - PentaxForums.com

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04-24-2018, 11:12 AM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In reality even at the very early analog/digital stage, there's a lot of data processing, filtering, NR and other tweaking likely to be happening well before the image data is handed off to the camera image processor, as illustrated by this simple Sony diagram of Exmor sensors (as used in the K-1).
Yes...It is only a problem when the processing starts "eating stars" before they even get written to file.


Steve
04-24-2018, 11:25 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Doesn't Lightroom have one of the worse Pixel Shift support?

No, it cannot - as I've shown.


No, it does not.
Wow Kunzite, I thought that you had done with this case (as you wrote earlier)... But I see that it still bothers you ? ;-)

---------- Post added 04-24-18 at 11:28 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Yes...It is only a problem when the processing starts "eating stars" before they even get written to file.


Steve
This new Pentax K-1M2 processing can also eat stars. It remains to be seen, we also need proper K-1 vs. K-1M2 star-sky comparison. (with different ISO and exposure times)... Indeed this new processing can clean up star-sky noise and also eat some dim stars at the same time!
04-24-2018, 11:44 AM   #252
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OK, folks, let's keep this friendly, please - no need for this to become personal, right?

It's obvious that we're not going to be able to draw conclusions until we can see side-by-side testing between the K-1 and K-1II shooting identical RAW images (ideally processed in more than one piece of software).

The diagrams posted above by @rawr demonstrate well what we all probably knew (or at least suspected), which is that there's no such thing as uncooked RAW. We need those side-by-side comparisons so we can determine how different that cooking is for the K-1II versus the K-1. After that, everyone can make their own minds up as to which is better - and that will largely depend on the individual photographer's priorities and tastes.
04-24-2018, 11:46 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by aikaarska Quote
This new Pentax K-1M2 processing can also eat stars. It remains to be seen, we also need proper K-1 vs. K-1M2 star-sky comparison...
I would substitute the word "might" for the word "can". I have seen no compelling evidence of stars being eaten. I have seen evidence of different renderings of fine detail that may or may not have been traceable to the RAW capture. I may be wrong, but I do believe that the nature of those rendering differences involved image features on a somewhat coarser scale than a dim star (a single pixel or less*).


Steve

* A single star may fail to expose all sites in the Bayer array and may or may not render depending on how the demosaic step of RAW processing is conducted.
04-24-2018, 11:52 AM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by aikaarska Quote
Wow Kunzite, I thought that you had done with this case (as you wrote earlier)... But I see that it still bothers you ? ;-)

---------- Post added 04-24-18 at 11:28 AM ----------



This new Pentax K-1M2 processing can also eat stars. It remains to be seen, we also need proper K-1 vs. K-1M2 star-sky comparison. (with different ISO and exposure times)... Indeed this new processing can clean up star-sky noise and also eat some dim stars at the same time!
I'm done with my investigation. I never said I'll keep quiet about it.
This new Pentax K-1M2 processing was not shown to eat stars, or anything else.
04-24-2018, 12:00 PM - 5 Likes   #255
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I'm willing to bet that Ricoh's engineers have spent many more man-hours analyzing the performance and impact of the unit with far more sophisticated tools than anyone contributing to this thread. Not to mention the practical experience gained from the KP and K-70.
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