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04-15-2018, 02:40 PM - 1 Like   #16
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So many hypotheses, so little time!

1. Some of the artifacts look like the result of using a very sharp lens on a Bayer sensor with no anti-aliasing.

2. How do the images look at ISO 100?

3. Is it possible that the "default" settings are wrong in that even the default is doing some clever sharpening-like process during demosaicing?

04-15-2018, 02:42 PM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
3. Is it possible that the "default" settings are wrong in that even the default is doing some clever sharpening-like process during demosaicing?
I'd also wondered if the problem here is related to demosaicing... although my suspicion was that it might be post-processing-software related, rather than in-camera...
04-15-2018, 03:32 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I'd also wondered if the problem here is related to demosaicing... although my suspicion was that it might be post-processing-software related, rather than in-camera...
Yes, all these systems are so very very complicated.

And the "better" the software the more cleverness they will have packed into the demosaicer. But that cleverness probably has all sorts of embedded assumptions about optical sharpness, anti-aliasing filters, ISO-response, and the camera's electronics. The software may not be properly tuned for Pentax K-1ii and the new accelerator chip.
04-15-2018, 03:41 PM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Yes, all these systems are so very very complicated.

And the "better" the software the more cleverness they will have packed into the demosaicer. But that cleverness probably has all sorts of embedded assumptions about optical sharpness, anti-aliasing filters, ISO-response, and the camera's electronics. The software may not be properly tuned for Pentax K-1ii and the new accelerator chip.
Without wanting to shift the OP's post off-topic, using Darktable has been a revelation and education to me. Although I rather like it, it's not the best RAW development software in every respect (perhaps in any respect?), but I do like the transparency, granularity and variety of processing on offer. It's quite enlightening to see how various types and ordering of processing affect photos from different cameras and at different sensitivities, with different flaws in IQ. The downside is that processing tends to be very individualised for each camera's output and the parameters and properties therein... but it's an eye-opener in understanding how other more-automated and assumptive software could make the wrong decisions leading to sub-optimal output

04-15-2018, 04:53 PM   #20
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Drawing so many conclusions from just one quickly shot image ...

Not enough data to make any camera judgements. Need to demonstrate repeatability.
04-15-2018, 11:43 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
With respect, I do take issue here - not just as a regular member but as a moderator. Why? Comparing the output of any modern DSLR or mirrorless camera to a phone camera is provocative - and especially so when we're talking about Pentax on a Pentax-oriented site. Remember, many posts here are available to view publicly. If we want the best for Pentax as a brand, we should consider how we phrase our critique and make it relevant and objective, not provocative (unless that's valid and warranted).

I agree that phone cameras produce a very "painterly" effect. In that sense, there is a similarity between that effect and aggressive noise reduction and over-sharpening in any other camera and / or post-processing software, albeit to a much lesser extent.

But until we understand the full details of the shot, software and processing parameters, how it looks as an in-camera-processed JPEG, a JPEG produced from RAW by the latest DCU, comparisons from various other RAW development tools, and like-for-like comparisons with the K-1, it's potentially counter-productive to conclude there's a problem with the K-1II. I'm not saying there isn't - just that we ought to be fully informed and do some research before we draw conclusions
As a matter of fact, I'm not drawing any conclusions.
I've always seen the fact that you can make out the single pixels in a photograph, the fact that you're really limited by the number of pixels in the sensors, as a mark of high quality cameras (well, lenses, actually, but you get the point). When you don't, it reminds me of something else, bothing I can do about it.

Furthermore I wrote about "crops from [brand X], [brand Y]", and nowhere I said that there's an issue with the camera itself.
It could be the demosaicing software, it could be PP...

But since you're moderating so actively, and read meanings and/or motives that just aren't there in the words I wrote, I'll just stop posting my observations in this thread, can't stand censorship, I'm afraid. Have a nice day.
04-16-2018, 12:42 AM - 2 Likes   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
But since you're moderating so actively, and read meanings and/or motives that just aren't there in the words I wrote, I'll just stop posting my observations in this thread, can't stand censorship, I'm afraid. Have a nice day.
I'm sorry if my actions came across as censorship towards you - that wasn't my intention. I just want to keep the OP's discussion based on fact rather than provocative rhetoric, due to the potentially emotive subject. I know how these threads can evolve...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-16-2018 at 12:48 AM.
04-16-2018, 01:00 AM - 1 Like   #23
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DNG? LR?

LR hasn't Mk2 support.

If you want to do a test you have to shot in PEF and use DCU 5.80 to fine tune NR and Sharpening. If you want test it in JPEG you have to disable High ISO NR.

04-16-2018, 01:10 AM - 2 Likes   #24
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The subject is... let's say interesting. In a way that doesn't make me inclined to pixel peep, or even look at it.

I agree with Mike, this should be kept factual - not provocative. I'm interested in the truth, after all - as I'm thinking to upgrade my K-1.
What I would like to see:
- using the center portion of the frame, carefully focused. It should be clear what's the focus point.
- ISO 100 samples just to establish a baseline.
- if possible, K-1 samples of the same scene, in the same conditions.
04-16-2018, 01:16 AM - 1 Like   #25
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After having so much disappointments with the K-1, you went and bought a K-1II that is also a disappointment. That has to be a bummer.

Well, have you used the DCU to make the developement?

EDIT: Reading my comment after a while, it sounds a bit rude. That is not the intention!

Last edited by Tjompen1968; 04-16-2018 at 07:33 AM.
04-16-2018, 06:46 AM   #26
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A few years ago after the original K1 came out a poster here saw that same issue (also at ISO 800) and innocently posted a question about it seeking help. One would have thought that he had killed the sacred cow. Some of the replies incredibly harsh to say the least. Luckily the moderator jumped in quick and removed them with a proper warning. I chimed in that I too had experienced the same thing on my K1. I even posted a few images from my camera showing the same thing. I never did figure out if it was the camera, a setting or something I did. It may even involve the now documanted shutter shake issue.

It would be interesting to know how the accelerator chip handles the issue of noise when the image also suffers from shutter shock which, of course, introduces it's own set of artifacts. My K1-II does have the shutter shock problem but not as bad as on my K1 and preliminary testing has shown that it is nicely controlled by the Shake Reduction feature.
04-16-2018, 07:14 AM - 1 Like   #27
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It's worth considering that some "mushing" of fine detail can be observed with most cameras. See below, ISO 800 image quality comparsions of the K-1, KP, Nikon D810 and Sony A7III - courtesy of our friends at DPR. I don't know what software was used (I think it was Lightroom), and we have to take into account lens performance away from the frame centre. Regardless, in all four examples we can observe that "mushing" effect to a greater or lesser extent. That may be down to the sensor, in-camera signal / image processing, software, lens, or a combination of any or all of those.

I'll be interested to see the comparsion shot for the K-1II when it becomes available.
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04-16-2018, 09:08 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
DNG? LR?

LR hasn't Mk2 support.
It does, though with support limited to the embedded camera profile. Such profiles may result in less robust color rendering, but should not create artifact such as in the top photo.


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04-16-2018, 09:13 AM - 3 Likes   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
After having so much disappointments with the K-1, you went and bought a K-1II that is also a disappointment. That has to be a bummer.
Without intending to sound rude myself, I was sort of thinking the same thing. I like the OP and am impressed by his work, but have come to the conclusion that he is the ultimate challenge to product performance and quality testing. If there is a way to get poor results or precipitate outright failure, he will find it.

That is not a bad thing.


Steve
04-16-2018, 11:13 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
It does, though with support limited to the embedded camera profile. Such profiles may result in less robust color rendering, but should not create artifact such as in the top photo.


Steve
I tried to open one of the initial photos (PEF file) from K1 Mark 2 with Lightroom CC and it does not open up. My experience in Lightroom CC is very limited (I was a Capture One user) and does not know more detailed step - I just got the Adobe CC subscription and it includes Lightroom CC and Lightroom Classic CC.
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