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05-29-2018, 10:36 AM   #1
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Sturm und Drang over the K1M2

What does it take for intelligent people to say stupid things? A poor review of a beloved camera marque! I own or have used both the M1 and M2, and, the DPR review was pretty accurate. I corresponded with the author, saw some of the data, and have no complaints about the review. I could, however, complain about some of the product marketing and engineering decisions that led to the M2.

The K-1 M1 is a SUPERB CAMERA for night/landscapes and astrophotography. Nothing else even comes close. You need to collect as many photons as possible, and display them in the best possible fashion. It is also cold and dark and dirty, and the K1 excels here as well.

** BUT, IQ is the TOP priority. The M2 is a step backwards in this regard, for my type of photography. They were apparently willing to trade IQ for better automatic focus, etc. which do not matter to me. For you, a bit more noise in the raw images, etc. may not mean much, and you may benefit from the accelerator board, etc. I cannot say.

*** I would be very surprised to see a firmware update that "fixes the IQ problem." If it was easy to fix in software, they would have done it before release. The engineers are not dummies. This smells like a "work-around" which is the best they can do with the current platform.

For example, I have waited YEARS for Sony to "fix the STAR EATER" problem. They have not done it. They probably can't without breaking something else. Can''t break the laws of physics in the local space/time continuum.

So, pay your money (or not) and make your choice.

05-29-2018, 10:55 AM   #2
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Some of what you say appears to be contradictory. I mostly shoot landscape and astro, and certainly care about image quality more than autofocus.
But one of the stated goals was certainly improving image quality at higher ISOs, which would make a difference in low-light situations. And I don't think the verdict is yet in on this. Some people have seen loss of detail, others haven't seen much. Some have certainly seen improvements in color and noise.
05-29-2018, 11:05 AM - 2 Likes   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
What does it take for intelligent people to say stupid things?
Not being an intelligent person, I will give the obvious answer..."I dunno, what?"


Steve
05-29-2018, 11:10 AM - 3 Likes   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
They were apparently willing to trade IQ for better automatic focus, etc. which do not matter to me. For you, a bit more noise in the raw images, etc. may not mean much, and you may benefit from the accelerator board, etc. I cannot say.
You need to get up to speed here. The DPR tests are ancient history.



Do you own this camera, or are you just doing the parrot thing and repeating what a guy who is generally perceived to be an anti-Pentax moron over at DPR says?

Despite all the negative nonsense posted on the forum, no one has a set of comparison images showing what you are talking about, or letting us compare for ourselves images taken with both cameras, for the type of image you shoot. And I can't find any proof that you even shoot images.

There is real data, and there's the data that exists in people's minds. regardless of what is said in various reviews, the reviewers are irresponsible and shouldn't be inferring data from irrelevant test procedures.

If you are going to post that a K-1 is better than a K-1 mkII, for astrophotography, you need comparison images showing us why! Post a K-1 and K-1 mkII shot side by side that shows the difference.

Anything less is irresponsible.

The fact that someone comes up with a test and makes conclusions doesn't mean their conclusions mean anything. Especially when they claim the test they've done applies to another scenario. Bare minimum, I need to be able to look at a couple of astro images and make up my own mind.

Time to come back to the real world and get out of the lab.

I may turn out that the K-1 is better than the K-1 mkII for astro photgrpahy, but the nonsense posted so far doesn't by any means prove it. Only actual astorhpotgrpay images can do that.


Last edited by normhead; 05-29-2018 at 12:24 PM.
05-29-2018, 11:21 AM   #5
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Well rcolman did say this -
QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
I own or have used both the M1 and M2
Agreed though, a hasty test is worse than no test at all. And now 1.02 firmware is out, correct?
05-29-2018, 11:47 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
What does it take for intelligent people to say stupid things? A poor review of a beloved camera marque! I own or have used both the M1 and M2, and, the DPR review was pretty accurate. I corresponded with the author, saw some of the data, and have no complaints about the review. I could, however, complain about some of the product marketing and engineering decisions that led to the M2.

The K-1 M1 is a SUPERB CAMERA for night/landscapes and astrophotography. Nothing else even comes close. You need to collect as many photons as possible, and display them in the best possible fashion. It is also cold and dark and dirty, and the K1 excels here as well.

** BUT, IQ is the TOP priority. The M2 is a step backwards in this regard, for my type of photography. They were apparently willing to trade IQ for better automatic focus, etc. which do not matter to me. For you, a bit more noise in the raw images, etc. may not mean much, and you may benefit from the accelerator board, etc. I cannot say.

*** I would be very surprised to see a firmware update that "fixes the IQ problem." If it was easy to fix in software, they would have done it before release. The engineers are not dummies. This smells like a "work-around" which is the best they can do with the current platform.

For example, I have waited YEARS for Sony to "fix the STAR EATER" problem. They have not done it. They probably can't without breaking something else. Can''t break the laws of physics in the local space/time continuum.

So, pay your money (or not) and make your choice.
Is this like a robot troll bait post by DPR staff?
05-29-2018, 12:20 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Is this like a robot troll bait post by DPR staff?
No, he has been a member here for a couple of years and recently sold his K-1 II on the marketplace here after about a month's ownership. He was initially very enthusiastic about his purchase, but (according to the marketplace listing) only used it for one session. He also posted photos in early April showing noise at ISO 800 and 3200, but with no complaints at that time. Other than that activity and this thread, there are no other posts on this site regarding K-1II performance.

It is safe to say that his opinion regarding the camera is based on actual user experience.


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05-29-2018, 12:29 PM   #8
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That's awesome, however the fact remains, no comparison images, or even an image that he can claim should have been better. How many posts have we seen where someone has come here to claim they were having an issue and the issue wasn't what they thought it was and there was another solution? He didn't even give us a shot at it. He just came and pontificated.

And he couldn't get any useful advice from he guy at DPR? That's not even close to surprising. The guy knows whats wrong with everything and not how to tease maximum performance out of nothing in the Pentax world.

I'm willing to bet his "terrible" astro shots would be good enough for most of us amateurs. But we don't get a look do we? It's not about us. It's all about him. Ergo, not worth listening to.

It didn't meet your needs? Fine move on. Your complaints should be on a need to know basis. This information for the vast majority of the forum is not "need to know".

Some people just feel the need to tell everyone the equipment they paid thousands for and use all the time isn't good enough for themselves. It's sickeningly borish behaviour.

If I start listing all the equipment that doesn't meet my needs and why, it's going to be a long post. I'll be kind and spare everyone the agony. Too bad others can't bring themselves to do the same. And I'd be certain to raise the ire of everyone who uses the equipment I'm dismissing. so why would that be productive? Why do folks want to do that?


Last edited by normhead; 05-29-2018 at 12:40 PM.
05-29-2018, 12:30 PM - 4 Likes   #9
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It seems that the Mark II is a hit among users, based on data we've gotten from B&H. Not everyone is going for it, but there certainly is an audience for inherently less noisy images. Those who don't like the Mark II either find little use for the added features, or prefer the unprocessed noise look that the original K-1 gives. There's also the (valid) argument that the Mark II's battery life is shorter.

As part of our in-depth review, we will provide detailed comparisons across a variety of scenarios, including astro. There's a reason we're not jumping the gun

Also, can we please avoid derailing this thread into a flame war? I feel like there is potential for legitimate discussion as long as we keep things factual.

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05-29-2018, 12:50 PM - 4 Likes   #10
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What is wrong with you guys?

I tried very hard to come up with a reasoned and logical assessment of what I have personally seen and done, based upon my needs as a photographer. I OWN/OWNED BOTH CAMERAS, and have many sample images.

So, what is the majority response?

I am a troll, an agent of DPR, don't know what I am doing after 40 years in photography and 20 years doing astrophotography. I currently own an extensive line of Sony and now Pentax cameras and lenses. I have owned and used, and am quite familiar with Olympus, Canon platforms. I write software, some of it for imaging.

I expected better, but, it seems like the fanboys have nothing better to do.
05-29-2018, 01:06 PM - 1 Like   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
It seems that the Mark II is a hit among users, based on data we've gotten from B&H. Not everyone is going for it, but there certainly is an audience for inherently less noisy images. Those that don't like the Mark II either find little use for the added features, or prefer the unprocessed noise look that the original K-1 gives. There's also the (valid) argument that the Mark II's battery life is shorter.

As part of our in-depth review, we will provide detailed comparisons across a variety of scenarios, including astro. There's a reason we're not jumping the gun

Also, can we please avoid derailing this thread into a flame war? I feel like there is potential for legitimate discussion as long as we keep things factual.
Thanks Adam. Very glad to hear you guys are being thorough and doing astro. Please just get it done a little before the Sept deadline for upgrades so I can decide.

Rcolman, I certainly don't think you're a troll. But you didn't help yourself with a lack of specifics or comparison photos in your first post. What specifically do you think has gone downhill with image quality? And do you not think the noise reduction helped? You reference the Sony star eater issue. That was a pretty well documented issue, and people could provide pretty clear examples of what was going on. Do you have something that is the equivalent for the Mk2?
05-29-2018, 01:08 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
No, he has been a member here for a couple of years and recently sold his K-1 II on the marketplace here after about a month's ownership. He was initially very enthusiastic about his purchase, but (according to the marketplace listing) only used it for one session. He also posted photos in early April showing noise at ISO 800 and 3200, but with no complaints at that time. Other than that activity and this thread, there are no other posts on this site regarding K-1II performance.

It is safe to say that his opinion regarding the camera is based on actual user experience.


Steve
Steve what ever the OP's experience may be the post is still a rambling bit of incoherence. Basically the post is giving a thumbs up to the DPR staff for a job well done "reviewing" the K-1MKII convincing them to sell their brand new K-1MKII.

Right here in the PF marketplace.

Maybe nobody should offer them more than say $550 for it. (add your preferred exchange rate)

---------- Post added 05-29-18 at 04:12 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
What is wrong with you guys?

I tried very hard to come up with a reasoned and logical assessment of what I have personally seen and done, based upon my needs as a photographer. I OWN/OWNED BOTH CAMERAS, and have many sample images.

So, what is the majority response?

I am a troll, an agent of DPR, don't know what I am doing after 40 years in photography and 20 years doing astrophotography. I currently own an extensive line of Sony and now Pentax cameras and lenses. I have owned and used, and am quite familiar with Olympus, Canon platforms. I write software, some of it for imaging.

I expected better, but, it seems like the fanboys have nothing better to do.
rcolman you are the one that brought up DPR staff. You had personal communications with the reviewer etc.per your claims. So whether you are acting on your own behalf or not you included DPR in your post.
05-29-2018, 01:17 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
What is wrong with you guys?

I tried very hard to come up with a reasoned and logical assessment of what I have personally seen and done, based upon my needs as a photographer. I OWN/OWNED BOTH CAMERAS, and have many sample images.

So, what is the majority response?

I am a troll, an agent of DPR, don't know what I am doing after 40 years in photography and 20 years doing astrophotography. I currently own an extensive line of Sony and now Pentax cameras and lenses. I have owned and used, and am quite familiar with Olympus, Canon platforms. I write software, some of it for imaging.

I expected better, but, it seems like the fanboys have nothing better to do.
Personally, I asked for images that demonstrate what you are talking about. I guess that makes me a fanboy in your words. You reduced a camera that is suitable for many applications and decided to concentrate on one application for which it possibly isn't suited. And that was your whole post. And in your mind that is a a reasoned position?

You expected better and we let you down, in your opinion? I expected better too, and you let me down. So whatever you might want to call me, we're both in the same position. Oh,ya, except for you called people who disagree with your approach fanboys. That was uncalled for.

Is everyone who posts a favourable review a fanboy? Is everyone who posts that they like the camera fanboy? Is everyone who just sees a new improved camera and doesn't share your concerns a a fanboy? Apparently in your mind only those focussed on what you consider to be major flaws is not a fanboy. Why you hanging out here dude? 99.5% of us, in your mind are fanboys.
05-29-2018, 03:16 PM - 1 Like   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by rcolman Quote
I tried very hard to come up with a reasoned and logical assessment of what I have personally seen and done, based upon my needs as a photographer. I OWN/OWNED BOTH CAMERAS, and have many sample images.

So, what is the majority response?
The minority response is that I would like to see the nature of the poor results that caused you to sell your camera at a pretty stiff (assuming asking price and UPS shipping) loss earlier this month. If you have comparison photos taken with the K-1 of the same starfield on the same night, that would be awesome. A good set of comparison images would make it all the easier to gain traction in regards to making this feature configurable.


Steve

(...also writes software and feels pretty strongly that hooks are very likely in place to manage the accelerator features...)
05-29-2018, 03:48 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You need to get up to speed here. The DPR tests are ancient history.
Li had strong reservations with the K-1 II in the second video in regards to how it handles the notorious* "underexposed + pull values in post" use case. I am not fond of that technique (thread to follow in the near future telling why), but in addition to the things he called out, the loss of fine detail (e.g. rug) for the K-1 II was also quite evident.


Steve

* The behavior is of note, though I am not sure it makes sense to place full blame on the camera.
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