Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-01-2018, 01:09 PM   #16
Pentaxian
D1N0's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: ---
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,400
They haven't stopped their view that the noise reduction chip is an evil detail consuming abomination naming it a con. I find the level of incompetence of some of their staff disconcerting. They are doing real damage to the Pentax brand.

06-01-2018, 01:20 PM   #17
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2016
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,625
And lets not forget that this kicks in at ISO 640, if I remember correctly (straighten me out if wrong on that). I pretty much make a point of staying below ISO 800 for the types of shots I want fine detail in - 200 is often my max for these scenarios. I know this might not fit for astrophotography, but if you're shooting flower bokeh, you shouldn't be up in the range where the accelerator chip kicks in anyway. The one combo where I use the higher ISO and want detail is birding, and I get some wanting as much detail as possible, but there's a point where it gets down to getting the shot, and I'm sensing the mark II gives you that headroom to get the shutter speed up for those shots - I'm typically shooting in TAv and keep it at 3200 max on my mark I in these scenarios. Upping that to 6400 would be pretty nice, and I sense that might be realistic with the mark II. And again, is 6400 on the mark I with time spent in post doing noise reduction really going to be better than what the mark II gives me to start with?
06-01-2018, 01:55 PM   #18
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,268
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
That in itself is quite interesting. I know we're discussing the K-1II, but given the accuracy of AF with Sony's mirrorless cameras, you have to wonder how it mis-focused (if that is indeed the case). Did the Sony show that it is, in fact, fallible too - or was this another error on DPR's part? With on-sensor PDAF points, it can't be an issue with AF fine adjustment...
.
It looks like it could be an error -- compare to the A7R II -- but for those who are more prone to detect a bias, the A7R III review identified the III as sharper than the II, which is not the case in the high-detail areas.

A7R III image comparison
06-01-2018, 01:56 PM - 2 Likes   #19
Pentaxian
Site Supporter
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 31,349
QuoteOriginally posted by SteveinSLC Quote
And yes, it's possible with a bunch of post processing, one could do the same job at getting rid of a lot of noise, and maybe not lose the detail.
I'd be really interested in seeing even one example of that being possible.

06-01-2018, 02:12 PM - 2 Likes   #20
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,442
i'm amazed to see how much discussion was going on about the details vs noise discussion of the Pentax K1 II, given that the K1 and K1 II largely outperform most cameras and smarphones seen in the field, the only next step in image quality beyond Pentax K1/D850/5DSr being in medium format territory which isn't so common.
06-01-2018, 02:14 PM   #21
Forum Member




Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 75
Normhead: It's not impossible for sure. You could do this even in Paint if you have enough free months to do this. Just who have time?

I don't care much about noise reduction in camera, if it is done right, but still I'd like to have choice to turn it off in those rare situations when pixel peeping details are so important.
06-01-2018, 02:22 PM   #22
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
Mikesul's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,179
I stopped using the DPreview comparison site years ago. The pictures they posted for most of the cameras I was interested in just did not seem right and when I go the cameras I confirmed they they were almost always better than the dpreview samples..
06-01-2018, 02:40 PM - 2 Likes   #23
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 11,099
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'd be really interested in seeing even one example of that being possible.
Well, I've been playing around with the ISO 6400 shots in Darktable, and in all honesty, the K-1 cleans up slightly better in post-processing than the K-1II straight out of camera.

With all noise reduction disabled for the K-1II image, I processed the K-1 image to reach approximately the same level of luminance noise reduction, and actually slightly better colour noise reduction. There's not a huge amount in it, but for me, the processed K-1 result is better so far as detail is concerned. Look at the body and arm of the magenta coat - this is where it's most noticeable - and to a lesser extent the red stripes on the shirt and trousers. The K-1II shows slightly blotchy / lost detail here, whereas the K-1 image with luminance and colour noise reduction from Darktable's Equalizer module (using custom settings - not the presets) retains the detail a little better. It's minimal, but it's there.

I think the K-1II is doing a remarkable job for in-camera noise reduction, and if that were on/off switchable or adjustable, it'd be awesome. For those who are prepared to spend time in post-processing, though, I'd say it's possible to squeeze just the tiniest bit more detail out of the original K-1's high ISO files...

The first image below is from the K-1II, and the second is from the K-1 with my processing applied.

Attached Images
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-1 Mark II  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-1  Photo 

Last edited by BigMackCam; 06-01-2018 at 03:08 PM.
06-01-2018, 02:44 PM - 2 Likes   #24
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 318
I was critical of the mark II based on the initial shoot but now the differences are so marginal I can't even make my mind up which is better. The big deal is, as always, how incredible well Pentax compares to the top of the line from the other brands. When price and pixelshift is taken into account it gets silly. Sony pixelshift looks pretty poor in comparison to Pentax.
06-01-2018, 03:32 PM   #25
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ffking's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Poole
Posts: 3,896
What's weird in the samples leekil posted above is that the two Pentaxes render the scene very similarly but the Sont, and especially the Nikon seem t bring out very different details- not more or less necessarily, just different
06-01-2018, 03:41 PM   #26
mee
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,641
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
It's more noticeable at higher ISOs... Here, at ISO 6400, you can see a bit of detail loss in the magenta and red woven material (especially the arm and body of the magenta coat). But this is a pixel-peeping 100% comparison, and the screenshot is enlarged for reproduction here...

'a bit' of detail loss? It looks totally mushy on the K-1 II shot to me. To the point I'd go with the original K-1 between the two. I can always run NR on the desktop. In those kind of situations I'd apply heavier NR to background or solid elements and much less on high detail objects (such as the patch). I'm not sure the K-1 II handles that elegantly...



They could resolve this entirely if they had a way to disable the baked in NR somehow.. I really hope the K-3 II successor has that since I'm pretty sure it will have some flavor of this chip built in.
06-01-2018, 03:46 PM - 1 Like   #27
SMC PENTAX LENSES
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,409
QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
I was critical of the mark II based on the initial shoot but now the differences are so marginal I can't even make my mind up which is better. The big deal is, as always, how incredible well Pentax compares to the top of the line from the other brands. When price and pixelshift is taken into account it gets silly. Sony pixelshift looks pretty poor in comparison to Pentax.
The logical question, then, must be if the IQ improvement at normal K-1 shooting levels up to 12800 is only marginal - at best - are HHPS and as yet unproven AF improvements worth $500?

I’ve agreed with DPR conclusion and Cons right along. I abhor their sloppy work and snarky tone.

Last edited by monochrome; 06-01-2018 at 09:32 PM.
06-01-2018, 03:50 PM - 1 Like   #28
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 11,099
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
'a bit' of detail loss? It looks totally mushy on the K-1 II shot to me.
With respect, I think that's an exaggeration... But then, it's highly subjective, and our perspectives are different. Way back when, you described one of my shots as being "mushy" when it had a level of post-processing noise reduction that I personally was very happy with. The same applies here... the noise reduction will please some, disappoint others, and the rest won't care.

That said, I've changed my mind on the basis of my post-processing tests, and would probably go with the K-1 also for IQ alone... though I'd be very happy with either camera, and of course the K-1II offers additional advantages.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
They could resolve this entirely if they had a way to disable the baked in NR somehow.. I really hope the K-3 II successor has that since I'm pretty sure it will have some flavor of this chip built in.
What's interesting is, almost nobody complained about this with the KP, but if you compare DPR's high ISO shots for the K-3 / K-3II and the KP, the exact same difference in detail (I call it "a bit", you call it "totally mushy") can be observed.

In all the time the KP has been around, I can only think of one member who decided the KP wasn't for him because of this noise reduction, and - perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not - his discovery was made right after all the discussions about the K-1II's noise reduction kicked off.

Aside from all that, like you I hope that any future Pentax cameras allow for this NR to be switched on and off, or - better still - configurable.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 06-01-2018 at 05:47 PM.
06-01-2018, 04:54 PM   #29
Pentaxian
D1N0's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: ---
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,400
QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
What's weird in the samples leekil posted above is that the two Pentaxes render the scene very similarly but the Sont, and especially the Nikon seem t bring out very different details- not more or less necessarily, just different

Leekil didn't use comparative size. Since the Nikon and the Sony have more megapixels 1:1 is more zoomed in.
06-01-2018, 05:11 PM   #30
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: GMT +10
Photos: Albums
Posts: 11,471
Looking at comparisons between bodies that use the same 36MP sensor shows that the Accelerator seems to concentrate on removing chroma noise.



These sort of comparisons also show how much of what we are seeing in these tests is very likely lens dependent, not a sensor issue. Here the Nikon and Sony lenses are perhaps simply a bit sharper than the FA77.

Or an ant bumped the DPR testing rig.

Last edited by rawr; 06-01-2018 at 05:19 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
brand, camera, contrast, dslr, field, full frame, full-frame, image, images, k-1, k1, k1ii re-shoot, megapixels, mkii, noise, objects, pentax, pentax k-1, people, score, sensor, studio, test, view
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hot off the presses: DPR to re-shoot its K1mkII test. texandrews Pentax K-1 107 06-02-2018 06:00 AM
Is K1ii better than K1 for capturing moving subjects? Billk Pentax K-1 12 06-01-2018 11:34 AM
Dpreview admitted they screwed up the K1ii review... Cambo Pentax DSLR Discussion 25 05-19-2018 03:19 AM
Will my K1ii ship on the 11th of April or ???? jtstgeorge Pentax Full Frame 11 04-02-2018 07:57 PM
K1ii's "Dynamic Pixel Shift" Will Put A Premium On Small High-Quality Lenses Fenwoodian Pentax K-1 36 03-06-2018 01:39 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:06 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top