Pixel shift not working for me

thepedant · 08-30-2018, 03:32 AM

I am struggling to detect any difference at all between images made with and without PS. Is there a particular kind of subject that would show a clear difference? I have tried developing the images in the camera, using DCU, and using Rawtherapee (OS is Linux). Here are links to an example pair of images the first without PS and the second with PS. There appear to be no difference between TIFs made from these files that could not be merely down to the fact of being separate exposures. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? The camera is a K-1 II.

Dropbox - imgp0286.pef
Dropbox - imgp0287.pef

Shot on a tripod using the 12 second timer and no movement correction.

Very grateful for any help on this issue.

Last edited by thepedant; 08-30-2018 at 04:52 AM. Reason: Added nore details of the shots.

sqrrl · 08-30-2018, 03:38 AM

I've only fiddled a wee bit, but I found the software which came with the camera to work best.

I'm assuming you are using a tripod - doesn't tend to work properly hand held.

**Pentax Syntax** · 08-30-2018, 04:30 AM - **1 Like**

For standard pixel shift, the best subjects are immobile objects with lots of detail. If you shoot a static picture of a detailed landscape element or architectural shot, you should see a major difference with PS (without MC). PS with MC is a bit trickier but might include landscapes with trees which might show minor movement. These modes require a tripod to achieve any advantage. For handheld PS, the main effect will be on noise control and color accuracy. You may see some additional sharpness but not with every subject. I observe differences for about half of targets. Bear in mind, you will only note these differences when viewing at 100%. Because stability is essential, a stable tripod and either remote trigger or timed trigger is very important for standard pixel shift. As you will note, electronic shutter is used for these shots. For "handheld" pixel shift, the standard shutter is used for the 4 captures.

**MossyRocks** · 08-30-2018, 06:02 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pentax Syntax

If you shoot a static picture of a detailed landscape element or architectural shot, you should see a major difference with PS (without MC)

I would think that it would work well for macro as well given the amount of detail a lot of those shots have and that there one is almost always shooting off of a tripod with a stationary non changing subject.

**Rondec** · 08-30-2018, 08:36 AM

What difference are you hoping to find? The detail will be exactly the same between a pixel shifted image and a non-pixel shifted image. This isn't super-resolution. What pixel shift is designed to do is to improve color accuracy and to a lesser extent to minimize noise in the shadowed areas of an image. To me, the big thing is that you can push the sliders a lot more without an image looking "pushed" with a pixel shift image. This is particularly true when you are shooting landscapes with high dynamic range or maybe macro shots. You will also find that it does reduce noise considerably for higher iso shooting -- say 800 iso pixel shift versus non pixel shift. But iso 100 is good enough on the K-1 that you certainly won't see much difference otherwise.

thepedant · 08-30-2018, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

What difference are you hoping to find? The detail will be exactly the same between a pixel shifted image and a non-pixel shifted image. This isn't super-resolution. What pixel shift is designed to do is to improve color accuracy and to a lesser extent to minimize noise in the shadowed areas of an image. To me, the big thing is that you can push the sliders a lot more without an image looking "pushed" with a pixel shift image. This is particularly true when you are shooting landscapes with high dynamic range or maybe macro shots. You will also find that it does reduce noise considerably for higher iso shooting -- say 800 iso pixel shift versus non pixel shift. But iso 100 is good enough on the K-1 that you certainly won't see much difference otherwise.

Thank you Rondec, those are very good points. I was just vaguely expecting more detail or sharper or just "better" in some way that would hopefully be obvious. Possibly less aliasing for example? I have now moderated my expectations...

**Rondec** · 08-30-2018, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by thepedant

Thank you Rondec, those are very good points. I was just vaguely expecting more detail or sharper or just "better" in some way that would hopefully be obvious. Possibly less aliasing for example? I have now moderated my expectations...

Well, pixel shift images shouldn't have moire while non-pixel shift images might have that, but I don't really see that in this particular image (I don't usually see that with K-1 images except with some fabrics).

I really would experiment in other situations with it and see if it is worth it to you. It may be in only a few select situations.

Adam · 08-30-2018, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by thepedant

I am struggling to detect any difference at all between images made with and without PS. Is there a particular kind of subject that would show a clear difference? I have tried developing the images in the camera, using DCU, and using Rawtherapee (OS is Linux). Here are links to an example pair of images the first without PS and the second with PS. There appear to be no difference between TIFs made from these files that could not be merely down to the fact of being separate exposures. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? The camera is a K-1 II.

Dropbox - imgp0286.pef
Dropbox - imgp0287.pef

Shot on a tripod using the 12 second timer and no movement correction.

Very grateful for any help on this issue.

You will probably start seeing more of an improvement when your subjects are more distant, which is when the bayer filter starts negatively affecting image quality. Also, I'd recommend just shooting in JPEG or raw+ because of how tedious it is to post-process PSR raw files (still). Examples of good use cases can be found here:

Pentax K-1 Review - Super Resolution and AA Filter | PentaxForums.com Reviews

house · 08-30-2018, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

What difference are you hoping to find? The detail will be exactly the same between a pixel shifted image and a non-pixel shifted image.

This is actually wrong both theoretically and, in my experience , practically. Bayer sensors only record data that amounts to a quarter of the pixel resolution. In the final image this is covered up by interpolation which means you can't resolve pixel level detail. The dpreview comparison widget shows quite clearly how much resolution you gain.

The thing is though that the added detail is at the pixel level (which imho somehow aggregates to better overall quality but this is just observation) so images with detail at this finest level will show the most improvement. For some subjects the pixelshift advantage is substantial for others meh...

I think there's a confusion about motion correction. (not you Rondec) MC only affects sooc jpegs There is no difference in the raw files between MC and normal.

**sbh** · 08-30-2018, 02:30 PM

287 seems to be a tiny bit sharper. Hpwever, the image quality isn't very good. It seems to be an older lens. i see plenty CA and glare or diffraction. Pixelshift works best with good and sharp lenses. Pixelshift can't compensate for lens imperfections but rather for sensor shortcomings. Maybe try a different lens that os a bit sharper. Do you have the 24-70? It works with that lens on my K1.

Unregistered User · 08-30-2018, 02:50 PM

Looking at the Polish remover there is a significant improvement in detail. Also in the text on the clock. I am looking on the embedded jpg so if you are looking on a processed RAW you will need to up the Fine Sharpness of the second file to gain the extra detail.

thepedant · 08-30-2018, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by sbh

287 seems to be a tiny bit sharper. Hpwever, the image quality isn't very good. It seems to be an older lens. i see plenty CA and glare or diffraction. Pixelshift works best with good and sharp lenses. Pixelshift can't compensate for lens imperfections but rather for sensor shortcomings. Maybe try a different lens that os a bit sharper. Do you have the 24-70? It works with that lens on my K1.

The lens is the 28-105mm that came with the camera. I will try with a prime lens. The smc Pentax-A 1:1.7 50mm and a distant subject.

Unregistered User · 08-30-2018, 03:16 PM - **1 Like**

I would argue that PS compensates for lens imperfections and problems with polution in the air between the lens and subject. I have developed both files in Adobe Camera RAW 10.5 and in the latest Pentax software, DCU and I find the detail to be much clearer in the PS file, also less noise is visible. How come you do not see that I wonder. The following is from Camera RAW and edited exactly the same.

thepedant · 08-31-2018, 01:10 AM

Thats fantastic! I am out this morning but as soon as I get back I will investigate some more. Thanks!

Pikselisiirto · 08-31-2018, 01:18 AM

Pixel shift works best with fine small details. It adds more natural sharpness and cleaner colors for them. I clearly see the differences. Digital Camera Utility 5 is one of the recommended softwares to combine pixel shift. Latest Rawtherapee is another especially for motion correction.

08-30-2018, 03:32 AM	#1
thepedant Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nottingham Posts: 70	Pixel shift not working for me I am struggling to detect any difference at all between images made with and without PS. Is there a particular kind of subject that would show a clear difference? I have tried developing the images in the camera, using DCU, and using Rawtherapee (OS is Linux). Here are links to an example pair of images the first without PS and the second with PS. There appear to be no difference between TIFs made from these files that could not be merely down to the fact of being separate exposures. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? The camera is a K-1 II. Dropbox - imgp0286.pef Dropbox - imgp0287.pef Shot on a tripod using the 12 second timer and no movement correction. Very grateful for any help on this issue. Last edited by thepedant; 08-30-2018 at 04:52 AM. Reason: Added nore details of the shots.

08-30-2018, 04:30 AM - 1 Like	#3
Pentax Syntax Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 595	For standard pixel shift, the best subjects are immobile objects with lots of detail. If you shoot a static picture of a detailed landscape element or architectural shot, you should see a major difference with PS (without MC). PS with MC is a bit trickier but might include landscapes with trees which might show minor movement. These modes require a tripod to achieve any advantage. For handheld PS, the main effect will be on noise control and color accuracy. You may see some additional sharpness but not with every subject. I observe differences for about half of targets. Bear in mind, you will only note these differences when viewing at 100%. Because stability is essential, a stable tripod and either remote trigger or timed trigger is very important for standard pixel shift. As you will note, electronic shutter is used for these shots. For "handheld" pixel shift, the standard shutter is used for the 4 captures. Last edited by Pentax Syntax; 08-30-2018 at 04:35 AM. Reason: additional thoughts

08-30-2018, 12:43 PM	#8
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,593	Originally posted by thepedant I am struggling to detect any difference at all between images made with and without PS. Is there a particular kind of subject that would show a clear difference? I have tried developing the images in the camera, using DCU, and using Rawtherapee (OS is Linux). Here are links to an example pair of images the first without PS and the second with PS. There appear to be no difference between TIFs made from these files that could not be merely down to the fact of being separate exposures. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? The camera is a K-1 II. Dropbox - imgp0286.pef Dropbox - imgp0287.pef Shot on a tripod using the 12 second timer and no movement correction. Very grateful for any help on this issue. You will probably start seeing more of an improvement when your subjects are more distant, which is when the bayer filter starts negatively affecting image quality. Also, I'd recommend just shooting in JPEG or raw+ because of how tedious it is to post-process PSR raw files (still). Examples of good use cases can be found here: Pentax K-1 Review - Super Resolution and AA Filter \| PentaxForums.com Reviews Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

08-30-2018, 03:16 PM - 1 Like	#13
Unregistered User Guest	I would argue that PS compensates for lens imperfections and problems with polution in the air between the lens and subject. I have developed both files in Adobe Camera RAW 10.5 and in the latest Pentax software, DCU and I find the detail to be much clearer in the PS file, also less noise is visible. How come you do not see that I wonder. The following is from Camera RAW and edited exactly the same. Last edited by Unregistered User; 08-30-2018 at 03:22 PM.

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08-30-2018, 03:38 AM	#2
sqrrl Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Otago, New Zealand Posts: 422	I've only fiddled a wee bit, but I found the software which came with the camera to work best. I'm assuming you are using a tripod - doesn't tend to work properly hand held.

08-30-2018, 06:02 AM - 1 Like	#4
MossyRocks Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,982	Originally posted by Pentax Syntax If you shoot a static picture of a detailed landscape element or architectural shot, you should see a major difference with PS (without MC) I would think that it would work well for macro as well given the amount of detail a lot of those shots have and that there one is almost always shooting off of a tripod with a stationary non changing subject.

08-30-2018, 08:36 AM	#5
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	What difference are you hoping to find? The detail will be exactly the same between a pixel shifted image and a non-pixel shifted image. This isn't super-resolution. What pixel shift is designed to do is to improve color accuracy and to a lesser extent to minimize noise in the shadowed areas of an image. To me, the big thing is that you can push the sliders a lot more without an image looking "pushed" with a pixel shift image. This is particularly true when you are shooting landscapes with high dynamic range or maybe macro shots. You will also find that it does reduce noise considerably for higher iso shooting -- say 800 iso pixel shift versus non pixel shift. But iso 100 is good enough on the K-1 that you certainly won't see much difference otherwise.

08-30-2018, 11:15 AM	#6
thepedant Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nottingham Posts: 70 Original Poster	Originally posted by Rondec What difference are you hoping to find? The detail will be exactly the same between a pixel shifted image and a non-pixel shifted image. This isn't super-resolution. What pixel shift is designed to do is to improve color accuracy and to a lesser extent to minimize noise in the shadowed areas of an image. To me, the big thing is that you can push the sliders a lot more without an image looking "pushed" with a pixel shift image. This is particularly true when you are shooting landscapes with high dynamic range or maybe macro shots. You will also find that it does reduce noise considerably for higher iso shooting -- say 800 iso pixel shift versus non pixel shift. But iso 100 is good enough on the K-1 that you certainly won't see much difference otherwise. Thank you Rondec, those are very good points. I was just vaguely expecting more detail or sharper or just "better" in some way that would hopefully be obvious. Possibly less aliasing for example? I have now moderated my expectations...

08-30-2018, 11:51 AM	#7
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by thepedant Thank you Rondec, those are very good points. I was just vaguely expecting more detail or sharper or just "better" in some way that would hopefully be obvious. Possibly less aliasing for example? I have now moderated my expectations... Well, pixel shift images shouldn't have moire while non-pixel shift images might have that, but I don't really see that in this particular image (I don't usually see that with K-1 images except with some fabrics). I really would experiment in other situations with it and see if it is worth it to you. It may be in only a few select situations.

08-30-2018, 01:04 PM	#9
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Originally posted by Rondec What difference are you hoping to find? The detail will be exactly the same between a pixel shifted image and a non-pixel shifted image. This is actually wrong both theoretically and, in my experience , practically. Bayer sensors only record data that amounts to a quarter of the pixel resolution. In the final image this is covered up by interpolation which means you can't resolve pixel level detail. The dpreview comparison widget shows quite clearly how much resolution you gain. The thing is though that the added detail is at the pixel level (which imho somehow aggregates to better overall quality but this is just observation) so images with detail at this finest level will show the most improvement. For some subjects the pixelshift advantage is substantial for others meh... I think there's a confusion about motion correction. (not you Rondec) MC only affects sooc jpegs There is no difference in the raw files between MC and normal.

08-30-2018, 02:30 PM	#10
sbh Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Black Forest, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 849	287 seems to be a tiny bit sharper. Hpwever, the image quality isn't very good. It seems to be an older lens. i see plenty CA and glare or diffraction. Pixelshift works best with good and sharp lenses. Pixelshift can't compensate for lens imperfections but rather for sensor shortcomings. Maybe try a different lens that os a bit sharper. Do you have the 24-70? It works with that lens on my K1.

08-30-2018, 02:50 PM	#11
Unregistered User Guest	Looking at the Polish remover there is a significant improvement in detail. Also in the text on the clock. I am looking on the embedded jpg so if you are looking on a processed RAW you will need to up the Fine Sharpness of the second file to gain the extra detail.

08-30-2018, 02:55 PM	#12
thepedant Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nottingham Posts: 70 Original Poster	Originally posted by sbh 287 seems to be a tiny bit sharper. Hpwever, the image quality isn't very good. It seems to be an older lens. i see plenty CA and glare or diffraction. Pixelshift works best with good and sharp lenses. Pixelshift can't compensate for lens imperfections but rather for sensor shortcomings. Maybe try a different lens that os a bit sharper. Do you have the 24-70? It works with that lens on my K1. The lens is the 28-105mm that came with the camera. I will try with a prime lens. The smc Pentax-A 1:1.7 50mm and a distant subject.

08-31-2018, 01:10 AM	#14
thepedant Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nottingham Posts: 70 Original Poster	Thats fantastic! I am out this morning but as soon as I get back I will investigate some more. Thanks!

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08-31-2018, 01:18 AM	#15
Pikselisiirto Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 57	Pixel shift works best with fine small details. It adds more natural sharpness and cleaner colors for them. I clearly see the differences. Digital Camera Utility 5 is one of the recommended softwares to combine pixel shift. Latest Rawtherapee is another especially for motion correction.