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10-01-2018, 04:55 AM   #1
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Shutter shock blurring

Tested my K-1 with DFA*50 and blurring is noticeable at 1/160s or slower (tested to 1/10s) and worst blurring happens between 1/80s - 1/40s. There is minor shock at 1/200s or 1/250s too, but it is quite hard to see even at 100%.


Mechanical shutter 1/60s (100% crop)




Electronic shutter 1/60s (100% crop)



There is couple things Pentax could do to help to avoid the shock. First they should enable ES while using optical viewfinder. KP has it, so why not K-1? Second, is there reason to disable SR while using ES? This makes SR quite useless because if you want sharpest results, you have to use a tripod at 1/60s or a bit slower depending how steady hands you have. Pentax could also add an option where you can choose custom shutter speed range for ES activation.


I assume that warranty doesn't cover shutter shock issues? I have 2016 batch because it still had the first firmware when I bought it new. It had good discount (1500 ~ $1740).

10-01-2018, 05:18 AM   #2
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Shutter shock is a dynamical phenomenon that depends on how the camera is held or mounted. It's not a flaw in individual cameras as much as it is a flaw in individual shooting situations.

SR is disabled with ES because the actual total exposure time between the top row of pixels and bottom row of pixels with ES is quite long on the K-1 -- at least 1/5th second regardless of the "shutter speed." For many longer focal lengths, SR could not keep the image stable for the entire time.
10-01-2018, 05:35 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pikselisiirto Quote
I have enabled SR all the time except when using a tripod. Blurring is there and I thought that I had focusing issues, but after testing it seems to be shutter shock which cause it.
other things I've do were:
- use pixel shift (hand held or tripod) and then disable pixel shift at raw conversion, it's like using a fully electronic shutter, downside is slow camera operation and writing to SD card, but that's fine for shooting one frame at a time.
- use TAv and set the shutter speed to 1/200, ISO will double but when for ISO between 100 and 400, the K1 noise is still reasonably low.
- enable SR with 2 sec. timer (it acts as MLU + sensor stabilization), SR can be enabled even on tripod.

Would be nice if Ricoh would release a firmware update with silent shutter like it is on the KP (single frame). But if they don't, I've given up on that, simply because for prints at size 150x100, the printing company recommends 15Mpix, so even if the image capture is a little blurred, 36Mp are more than enough. And beyond 400 ISO, noise would start to take a toll on perception of sharpness anyway. For printing larger than 150x100, it could become a concern.
10-01-2018, 05:38 AM - 1 Like   #4
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What he said^

1/25s hand held razor sharp this one a pixel peeper cropped to dip[lay at 1:1 on a 2650x1600 screen. It's pretty much razor sharp, click on the image to enlarge it to 1:1.

If there is shutter shock, it's not worthy of either comment or concern.


Sometimes I think with this type of comparison people shoot test images then stare at the screen so long they start to imagine things, or dwell on differences irrelevant to final output.

10-01-2018, 05:46 AM   #5
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The large the sensors , the more likely shutter shock effects, because as the shutter size increases the kinetic energy is squared. More shutter shock effects when moving from apsc to full frame, and even more when moving from full frame to medium format (when the same kind of shutter is used). All cameras suffer of this, more or less. A tiny bit a sharpening in post, and the blur is corrected.
10-01-2018, 05:54 AM - 1 Like   #6
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Using a high resolving lens shutter shock is going to be much mere obvious when pixel peeping. I find it most troubles me when using small primes, where relying on sr at low shutter speeds usually delivers sharper pictures. faster shutter speeds above 1/200th are also less affected. I find it a pain to have to take that into account all the time. I wish I could set a range of shutterspeeds that the camera is not allowed to use in a user mode.
10-01-2018, 06:06 AM   #7
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Shutter Shock - A topic to argue about on the forums
Most folks blame it on bad technique, the minority blame it on the camera. What I find interesting is with the m4/3. There are several cameras that get blamed a lot for SS. They have made some hardware changes and firmware changes and complaints dropped. Sounds like a camera problem.
I see it some times on my KS-2. Weird thing is I've never seen it with Flash. If it is mechanical you'd expect to see it.
When I run into it I raise the iso to get out of the vibration range.
IMHO I feel it's got something to do with SR, Like the sensor isn't tracking or locked in place.
Let the arguments begin
10-01-2018, 06:06 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I wish I could set a range of shutterspeeds that the camera is not allowed to use in a user mode.
That's why I shoot with TAv on the K-1. In any case, it's worst with the DFA 28-105, and much less of a problem with the heavy modern zooms (70-200, 150-450, 15-30).

10-01-2018, 06:33 AM - 2 Likes   #9
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I guess my problems is, I just don't see the difference between the two images posted as significant. That amount of difference would not contribute to my enjoyment of an image. It would be really nice if some of the energy devoted to technical minute were diverted to composition and content.

I once took out a couple of Nikon D810 users who seemed totally concerned about shutter shock, to the point they were setting up heavy tripods with weight and doing all the stuff the "experts" told them to do to avoid it. I walked around with my K-3 and SR on. Over the course of the trip I took hundreds more images than they did, and had hundreds more keepers. At some point you have to ask, "Is this focus on reducing shutter shock and minute technical detail, causing me to miss good images" For the two guys I took out, I can say it absolutely did.

But it worked out OK, I sent them links to my photo pages so they can see what they missed.

It was a photgraphy trip, but these guys were so into their own world about shutter shock, they missed most of the photographic opportunities, or got very little from it. So, my advice based on that experience is, ignoring shutter shock is the better option photographically. Especially with SR on the camera body, so all your lenses are stabilized. I often think all the Nikon shutter shock advice on shutter shock is based on lack of a decent in body SR system, and the old school thought that locking everything down produces better images. On old non-stabilized cameras that's true, but not necessarily because of shutter shock.

And when you start missing shots because you're worried about shutter shock, on a Pentax system, IMHO you are wasting your time.

If the images is a compelling image, even blown up to 48 x32 the amount of difference displayed above will make no difference to the final print, nor will it make a difference on a 3840 x 2150 4k TV.

No one has ever posted examples from a common display option that will take advantage of such differences. It'a waste of time.

It's disappointing to see shutter shock worries that were pretty much imaginary even on Nikons with no internal image stabilization migrating to a Pentax forum. You can get amazing images without thinking about or compensating for shutter shock. It's an elective thought process. You do it because you like to do it, out of personal interest, not because it helps you take more compelling images. It doesn't.

Last edited by normhead; 10-02-2018 at 07:08 AM.
10-01-2018, 06:39 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by thazooo Quote
I see it some times on my KS-2. Weird thing is I've never seen it with Flash. If it is mechanical you'd expect to see it.
You won't see it with a flash because the flash pulse is like bringing up equivalent shutter speed to 1/5000 at reduced power.
When shutter choc there is, also raise the question of camera motion effect at those shutter speeds. Using 1/40th to 1/80th with a 50mm lens isn't reducing motion blur to 0 even with SR enabled.
If sharpness is the only goal, its maximum is achieved either with a lot of light and high shutter speed and base ISO, or with a flash gun set at half power (or less than half power) and base ISO.

If the drop of sharpness happens in real shooting situation then it's worth considering, however it's less a concern if shutter blur happens in test conditions only.

Depends what we photograph:
- if that's portrait it'll be sharp enough even with shutter shock (some may smooth out skins in post, or use Skin type1/2 options in K1)
- if that's landscape macro or reproduction works tripod and ES or even pixel shift can be used
- if that's sport with long lens shutter speed is usually over 1/250th -> 1/2000th, SS is much less a problem in that range of shutter speed

---------- Post added 01-10-18 at 15:56 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I guess my problems is, I just don't see the difference between the two images posted as significant
If you have a 4K monitor, chances are you cannot see the blur. I have an 27 inch HD monitor and I can barely see the shutter blur of the examples posted at 100%, there is a little bit of blur but not obvious to my eyes.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 10-01-2018 at 07:01 AM.
10-01-2018, 07:24 AM - 1 Like   #11
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Every SLR I've owned has had a bit of shock somewhere between 1/15 sec and 1/125 sec, peaking in around 1/60 sec. The K1, when I went looking, was about the best I've seen to date.
10-01-2018, 07:37 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pikselisiirto Quote
if you want sharpest results, you have to use a tripod
Genius.
10-01-2018, 07:52 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Every SLR I've owned has had a bit of shock somewhere between 1/15 sec and 1/125 sec, peaking in around 1/60 sec. The K1, when I went looking, was about the best I've seen to date.
I've seen it before on my K-3... See my post HERE...

It seems to be dependent on a combination of specific camera plus specific lens, with both focal length and shutter speed inter-related. Whilst I have no hard evidence, I suspect it might even vary by individual copies of cameras and lenses, as any component manufacturing tolerances can influence weight and the effects of mechanical movement...
10-02-2018, 07:29 AM - 1 Like   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I've seen it before on my K-3... See my post HERE...

It seems to be dependent on a combination of specific camera plus specific lens, with both focal length and shutter speed inter-related. Whilst I have no hard evidence, I suspect it might even vary by individual copies of cameras and lenses, as any component manufacturing tolerances can influence weight and the effects of mechanical movement...
I so often shot a burst of 3 or 4, and then select the sharpest, and there is so often a clearly better image, I just accept, there are things going on that no amount of analysis's on my part would ever correct. For me burst mode is the big equalizer. 4 shot burst gives you a really good chance of getting sharp, clean image hand held. And I've never seen anything to suggest SR doesn't compensate for shutter shock, if it exists, at least nothing technical. It is the internet, and everyone has a theory. All I know is, I miss some shots, I nail some shots. Some seem to think they should nail every shot. Back in film days I counted on 3 or 4 good images per roll unless I was working in a studio. These days I nail over 70% of my focus and exposures. I'm not complaining. And most of what I miss is because I've used a slow shutter speed maximizing my ISO, looking for exceptional dynamic range and colour depth.

---------- Post added 10-02-18 at 10:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If you have a 4K monitor, chances are you cannot see the blur. I have an 27 inch HD monitor and I can barely see the shutter blur of the examples posted at 100%, there is a little bit of blur but not obvious to my eyes.
And most prints are done at a higher pixel density than a 4 k monitor.

Tess often comes over to my 27 inch 2650x1600 monitor to finish work on an image for the exact reason you mention. She has a 21 inch 4 k monitor and it's even worse. As far as I can tell 109 ppi is about as dense as you should use if you want to monitor the sharpness and out of focus areas of your images. Tess' monitor is over 200 Pixels per inch, and even viewed 1:1, out of focus areas get reduced to such small sizes they look sharp.

I also suspect the same with prints. If your base file works out to 100 lw/ph in real numbers, you won't improve IQ by going to a higher lw/ph value.

Last edited by normhead; 10-02-2018 at 08:17 AM.
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