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11-09-2018, 04:28 PM   #1
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Shake Reduction with K-1

It's damn good! Here's handheld at 1/10 sec at ISO 800:



Zeiss 21mm Distagon. Don't remember the f-stop, probably 5.6.

11-09-2018, 04:40 PM   #2
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SR is so good that it's even possible to take landscape photographs at dawn with low ISO without a tripod, shutter speed 1/5th, without impact on sharpness. The trouble is, I am not aware of any camera that changes shutter speed settings based on SR in order to use a lower ISO setting. For all cameras, the user who want to intentionally take advantage of SR has to use the manual exposure mode. Exposure automation with SR could be done with a firmware option: when SR is enabled, shutter speed + aperture + iso combination is set according to lens FL and SR capability are that FL.
11-10-2018, 04:38 AM   #3
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no one cares.... wow, amazing.
11-10-2018, 07:49 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
no one cares.... wow, amazing.
I prefer to make exposure decisions myself, but I can see how such a firmware update could help those who don't.

11-10-2018, 08:56 AM   #5
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Maybe I have a bad copy of K-1, but shutter shock blur makes SR quite useless with a lens like DFA*50, if you want maximum sharpness. This lens can be so sharp that it is hard to complain about the details even at 100% in some cases. When using pixel shift with soft light, photos start to look very realistic especially when using certain types of focusing. I have tested shutter shock between 1/160s - 1/15s with a tripod. Electronic shutter produce sharper photos there. 1/200s -1/250s still has a bit shutter shock, but it is very hard to notice. Mirror lockup doesn't help either. Luckily I shoot mostly landscapes and other low to no motion photos, so pixel shift or electronic shutter can be used very often for best results.
11-10-2018, 10:48 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pikselisiirto Quote
Maybe I have a bad copy of K-1, but shutter shock blur makes SR quite useless with a lens like DFA*50, if you want maximum sharpness. This lens can be so sharp that it is hard to complain about the details even at 100% in some cases. When using pixel shift with soft light, photos start to look very realistic especially when using certain types of focusing. I have tested shutter shock between 1/160s - 1/15s with a tripod. Electronic shutter produce sharper photos there. 1/200s -1/250s still has a bit shutter shock, but it is very hard to notice. Mirror lockup doesn't help either. Luckily I shoot mostly landscapes and other low to no motion photos, so pixel shift or electronic shutter can be used very often for best results.
I haven't noticed that with my K1 and *50, but shutter shock issues are sometimes hard to nail down. The lens is interesting to me. I have one shot taken from up high with people down below on a path, very small in the photo, everything sharp at around f 6.3. When I zoom in on them they look like 3d models.
11-12-2018, 02:32 AM - 4 Likes   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pikselisiirto Quote
Maybe I have a bad copy of K-1, but shutter shock blur makes SR quite useless with a lens like DFA*50, if you want maximum sharpness. This lens can be so sharp that it is hard to complain about the details even at 100% in some cases. When using pixel shift with soft light, photos start to look very realistic especially when using certain types of focusing. I have tested shutter shock between 1/160s - 1/15s with a tripod. Electronic shutter produce sharper photos there. 1/200s -1/250s still has a bit shutter shock, but it is very hard to notice. Mirror lockup doesn't help either. Luckily I shoot mostly landscapes and other low to no motion photos, so pixel shift or electronic shutter can be used very often for best results.
If I can share my experience of shutter shock with the Pentax K-1:
- when I used the Pentax K5, I was not aware of shutter shock, there was no electronic shutter, no pixel shift, and I wasn't even using mirrorless lockup, image resolution and dynamic range were up from the K200D, I was happy with the K5

- after the K5, I used the K3, it was a step up in resolution from the K5, no anti-alias filter, K3 had higher frame rate and better AF, the K3 did not have either ES or pixel shift, I was happy with the K3
- after the K3, I upgraded to a Pentax K1, it was such a step up in resolution, noise and I was able to shot stunning bokeh image and enjoy 4 stops of shake reduction, I was not aware of shutter shock and I was wowed by the images I took with the K1, shutter count about 5000.

- after a while, Ricoh Imaging released a firmware update that added the electronic shutter function to fix shutter shock issues (that's what Ricoh said): at first, I wondered "does K1 have any shutter issue, what is that?", then I took some test shot on tripod, with electronic shutter, pixel shift and normal mode, and I discovered the "shutter shock" villain. Before firmware update I was happy with the K1, after the firmware update I was so disappointed by shutter shock, it became an obsession, it was mental, I was checking with all my lenses at various shutter speed, I was pixel peeping to 100% each shot, the Pentax K1 became such a disappointment. Then I though, "hum, I'm an engineer, I should be able to figure that out"... I took a number of test shots, taking 3 shots in each condition, figured out contribution to mirror vibration and shutter shock. Came to the conclusion that I would have SR enabled at all times and use the DFA28-105 with care about shutter speeds. Then I compare image sharpness from the K1 to image sharpness from other brands: Canon 5DIII, Canon 5DSr and Nikon D810 and D750. Now, shutter count on my K1 is 35000 , I don't have issues with shutter shock anymore.

The deal with shutter shock on the K1 is the following:
- 50% of perceived shutter shock is mental due to obsessive pixel peeping after little blur is discovered, it looks a bigger issue than it actually is

- 50% of perceived shutter shock is real:
=> half of real shutter shock blur is reduced by using SR (at least in my case I can demonstrate it in a scientific way)
=> real shutter shock blur is less than anti-alias filter used by Canon and Nikon cameras: an image from a Pentax K1 downsized to 24Mpixels is still noticeably sharper than an image from a Canon 5DIII or Nikon D750
=> real shutter shock blur is eliminated completely at shutter speeds of 1/200th s. and faster, a condition that is easily achieved in commonly encountered lighting situation and with a fast lens such as the DFA*50.

I mean, lets be honest, why would anyone buy a DFA*50 for shooting landscapes at aperture set between f/8 and f/16? If shooting landscapes between f/8 and f/16, DFA*50 is the wrong choice.
And when shooting with the DFA*50 open at f/1.4, f/2, f2.8, ISO100, shutter speed is faster than 1/200th in all common lighting situations (ref. ISO/Shutter/Aperture tables).

Shutter shock is mostly a mental thingy, and also a real thing that can be worked around. Cameras are expensive devices, and customers are so picky.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 11-12-2018 at 02:39 AM.
11-12-2018, 07:31 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If I can share my experience of shutter shock with the Pentax K-1:
- when I used the Pentax K5, I was not aware of shutter shock, there was no electronic shutter, no pixel shift, and I wasn't even using mirrorless lockup, image resolution and dynamic range were up from the K200D, I was happy with the K5

- after the K5, I used the K3, it was a step up in resolution from the K5, no anti-alias filter, K3 had higher frame rate and better AF, the K3 did not have either ES or pixel shift, I was happy with the K3
- after the K3, I upgraded to a Pentax K1, it was such a step up in resolution, noise and I was able to shot stunning bokeh image and enjoy 4 stops of shake reduction, I was not aware of shutter shock and I was wowed by the images I took with the K1, shutter count about 5000.

- after a while, Ricoh Imaging released a firmware update that added the electronic shutter function to fix shutter shock issues (that's what Ricoh said): at first, I wondered "does K1 have any shutter issue, what is that?", then I took some test shot on tripod, with electronic shutter, pixel shift and normal mode, and I discovered the "shutter shock" villain. Before firmware update I was happy with the K1, after the firmware update I was so disappointed by shutter shock, it became an obsession, it was mental, I was checking with all my lenses at various shutter speed, I was pixel peeping to 100% each shot, the Pentax K1 became such a disappointment. Then I though, "hum, I'm an engineer, I should be able to figure that out"... I took a number of test shots, taking 3 shots in each condition, figured out contribution to mirror vibration and shutter shock. Came to the conclusion that I would have SR enabled at all times and use the DFA28-105 with care about shutter speeds. Then I compare image sharpness from the K1 to image sharpness from other brands: Canon 5DIII, Canon 5DSr and Nikon D810 and D750. Now, shutter count on my K1 is 35000 , I don't have issues with shutter shock anymore.

The deal with shutter shock on the K1 is the following:
- 50% of perceived shutter shock is mental due to obsessive pixel peeping after little blur is discovered, it looks a bigger issue than it actually is

- 50% of perceived shutter shock is real:
=> half of real shutter shock blur is reduced by using SR (at least in my case I can demonstrate it in a scientific way)
=> real shutter shock blur is less than anti-alias filter used by Canon and Nikon cameras: an image from a Pentax K1 downsized to 24Mpixels is still noticeably sharper than an image from a Canon 5DIII or Nikon D750
=> real shutter shock blur is eliminated completely at shutter speeds of 1/200th s. and faster, a condition that is easily achieved in commonly encountered lighting situation and with a fast lens such as the DFA*50.

I mean, lets be honest, why would anyone buy a DFA*50 for shooting landscapes at aperture set between f/8 and f/16? If shooting landscapes between f/8 and f/16, DFA*50 is the wrong choice.
And when shooting with the DFA*50 open at f/1.4, f/2, f2.8, ISO100, shutter speed is faster than 1/200th in all common lighting situations (ref. ISO/Shutter/Aperture tables).

Shutter shock is mostly a mental thingy, and also a real thing that can be worked around. Cameras are expensive devices, and customers are so picky.
Thanks, Biz-Engineer, for this careful and fun discussion of a puzzling issue. Your explanation makes great sense and your description of the detailed methodology you used is what we needed!

11-12-2018, 09:16 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
Thanks, Biz-Engineer, for this careful and fun discussion of a puzzling issue. Your explanation makes great sense and your description of the detailed methodology you used is what we needed!
Seconded.

Interesting to note that the 28-105 crops up a lot when discussing shutter-shock, and especially hand held. Now I don't own that lens so cannot comment specifically but I have never experienced shutter shock with the K1 and any of the lenses I use hand held (15-30; 24-70; DFA 50 plus others). I have only seen shutter shock when using a tripod with a footed long lens (DA* 60-250 and DA* 300). I have a series 3 Gitzo tripod and head so I know that is not the issue. Perhaps the 28-105 is troublesome or perhaps there is sample variation in the K! which shows for some and not others. i just remember now when using a tripod with a footed lens to use LV with ES enabled. Problem solved.
11-12-2018, 10:18 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
Your explanation makes great sense and your description of the detailed methodology you used is what we needed!
I shot the same target with lens pre-focused with LV magnification, lens aperture MTF (avoid diffraction), shutter speed ~1/FL (1/60th s. for 60mm FL) and using the IR remote to trigger the camera:

1) IR remote without refocus (excludes change in sharpness due to focus repeatability), without wait, non-live view, SR Off: take 3 shots, note files names
2) IR remote without refocus (excludes change in sharpness due to focus repeatability), without wait, non-live view, SR On: take 3 shots, note files names
3) IR remote without refocus, with 3 sec. wait, non-live view, SR Off: take 3 shots, note files names
4) IR remote without refocus, with 3 sec. wait, non-live view, SR On: take 3 shots, note files names
5) IR remote without refocus, with MLU, SR Off: take 3 shots, note files names
6) IR remote without refocus, with MLU, SR On: take 3 shots, note files names
7) IR remote without refocus, in live view, without wait, non ES, SR Off: take 3 shots, note files names
8) IR remote without refocus, in live view, without wait, non ES, SR On: take 3 shots, note files names
9) IR remote without refocus, in live view, with 3 sec. wait, non ES, SR Off: take 3 shots, note files names
10) IR remote without refocus, in live view, with 3 sec. wait, non ES, SR On: take 3 shots, note files names
11) IR remote without refocus, in live view, without wait, ES On (default to SR Off): take 3 shots, note files names
12) IR remote without refocus, in live view, with 3 sec. wait, ES On (default to SR Off): take 3 shots, note files names

Batch develop all RAW files with same settings. Batch center crop 100% all shots.
Compare image two by two, rank each image relative to each other, from sharpest to worse, two by two until all images are ranked from best to worse.

Then I could evaluate:
- how much is the contribution of mirror kick
- how much is contribution of actuating aperture blades (yes!, because I notice 3 sec. timer also close the aperture blades and wait 3 seconds, so it is better than MLU + wait)
- how much is shutter contribution
- effect of SR over mirror
- effect of SR over shutter
- effect of SR over aperture block actuation.

About half of blur amount was due to mirror kicking, SR removes all the effect of mirror kick and aperture block and slight reduction of blur from the shutter.
The maximum sharpness is obtained with ES On and 3 sec. delay (stopping down the lens aperture 3 sec. before image capture), but shooting with SR On isn't far in terms of sharpness.
I've also used a speed-light to isolate shutter shock only effect (flash set to 1/2 power in order to get 1/8000 equivalent shutter speed), gives about the same result as EFCS.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 11-12-2018 at 10:23 AM.
11-12-2018, 03:20 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
About half of blur amount was due to mirror kicking, SR removes all the effect of mirror kick and aperture block and slight reduction of blur from the shutter.
The maximum sharpness is obtained with ES On and 3 sec. delay (stopping down the lens aperture 3 sec. before image capture), but shooting with SR On isn't far in terms of sharpness.
I've also used a speed-light to isolate shutter shock only effect (flash set to 1/2 power in order to get 1/8000 equivalent shutter speed), gives about the same result as EFCS.
From what you wrote I am assuming that the 3 sec delay is using the self timer. That seems to be the only way to lock up the mirror and close the aperture before the exposure. It is only suppose to do this with the 2 second delay and not the 12 second delay, or MLU. Before your post, I did not realize that MLU was different than the timer.

If I am reading this right, how do you force SR while using the timer?

Dan
11-12-2018, 10:15 PM - 2 Likes   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSLRnovice Quote
If I am reading this right, how do you force SR while using the timer?
Custom settings page 3. Change the settings for auto SR-off. The default setting will disable SR when using timer or remote.
11-13-2018, 12:50 AM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSLRnovice Quote
If I am reading this right, how do you force SR while using the timer?
Yes, it is not possible to have SR and MLU active at the same time. Changing menu setting C21 from 1 to 2 ("Disable Auto SR off") allow to keep SR actively working during the 2 s. or 3 s. (remote) delays. I use a JJC IR remote (I have two actually, one as backup) is my favorite because the IR remote has two buttons: I can decide to AF without triggering the shutter, have 3 s. delay or not, and have SR enabled, and I can still use the camera directly overriding the remote without changing anything and go back to using the remote, so it's really practical when on location.
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