Electronic Shutter Exceptions (Bug?)

Gimbal · 11-14-2018, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by savoche

If it had been a fully electronic shutter it wouldn't. But as far as I can see that's not how it is implemented with any "serious" camera. Only the "opening" of the shutter is electronic, while the closing is mechanical. (At least for normal shooting; it might be different for PS.)

It IS different with PS, so the firmware already knows how to do it. But only when using PS.

**BruceBanner** · 11-14-2018, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

If you pixel shift, you get four shots in a row with ES enabled. But I wouldn't think having the shutter click after the shot would be a big deal either way. I imagine that the K-1 sequel will have a true silent mode where the shutter doesn't operate at all, but this was Pentax's early foray into the realm of electronic shutters.

KP's ES mode is virtually silent, night and day difference to the K-1's ES sound.

Originally posted by Pikselisiirto

OVF is so much nicer for composition in most cases, so I just try to hold the camera still while looking, press LV and then shutter button. Pentax could automate this process, but they don't. Also full electronic shutter from the OVF is possible. Just shoot pixel shift and ditch 3 other frames. Pentax could automate this process, but they don't. Bracketing is slower with electronic shutter, but pixel shift is fast. There is probably differences between pixel shift ES and normal ES, but Pentax could give us a choice, but they don't.

I noticed that K-1 card writer slots are not fast and the speed is shared. This will increase capture delay with timelapses with full quality and even more, if using two cards. Pentax could offer ES option for timelapse to maintain shutter durability, but they don't. Only possible option right now is to write a mobile app with Pentax SDK and make a script, but I haven't seen any. There also should be option to turn of the screen in LV because it is draining battery quite fast.

K-1 could do more, but firmware has limitations. SDK release might indicate that they won't add more features through the firmware.

That's a curious process that I would like to know more about. I mean, I just tried it now, but my LV mode has Face Detection set up (which actually works fantastically, eyes typically prioritised. I'm now wondering if I can use this tactic a little for certain shots, either have my LV mode set for the same spot point (centre or somewhere else), then frame the shot in OVF but don't rely on PDAF for the focus, then quickly press LV and then Focus and take the shot, because 9/10 the LV does a better focusing job

Is this what you sometimes do?

Pikselisiirto · 11-17-2018, 03:39 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BruceBanner

KP's ES mode is virtually silent, night and day difference to the K-1's ES sound.

That's a curious process that I would like to know more about. I mean, I just tried it now, but my LV mode has Face Detection set up (which actually works fantastically, eyes typically prioritised. I'm now wondering if I can use this tactic a little for certain shots, either have my LV mode set for the same spot point (centre or somewhere else), then frame the shot in OVF but don't rely on PDAF for the focus, then quickly press LV and then Focus and take the shot, because 9/10 the LV does a better focusing job

Is this what you sometimes do?

I use ES to avoid shutter shock blur below 1/200s and it requires LV mode. Many photos are focused to the infinity and with contrast detection to avoid calibration issues, so I don't use focusing when doing hand-held composition through the OVF, holding camera still, pressing LV and then ES is used when pressing shutter button. PDAF focusing has been very rare for me unless trying to focus close on something which moves all the time. Calmer subjects focus fine with slower contrast detection or I just manually focus with peaking. Mostly this is done with a tripod, so pixel shift is used anyway. K-1 and DFA*50 can produce amazingly sharp photos without shutter shock and when pixel shift works well enough and careful focusing is used. Especially wide aperture isolation can look very natural. This all is quite narrow use of the camera, but it mainly fits to what I want to photograph and this is why I think that K-1 is excellent value. Luckily I can dodge most of the weak points of K-1, but it is not so convenient.

**clackers** · 11-17-2018, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Except that the shutter seems to be cycled after every normal ES shot anyway.

For unknown reasons.

Only the first shutter action is electronic. The second terminates the exposure so shake doesn't land on the sensor.

Gimbal · 11-18-2018, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by clackers

Only the first shutter action is electronic. The second terminates the exposure so shake doesn't land on the sensor.

Yes, but why use the shutter at all when in ES mode?

You are in live view, the shutter is already open, the ES fires and then you are back to live view. Why cycle the shutter?
PS mode shows that the camera can take pictures without cycling the shutter.

biz-engineer · 11-18-2018, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Why cycle the shutter?

Pixel reset is electronic, for all pixels at a time, which defines the start time of light capture. Stopping capture of light is not done electronically because doing so runs pixel capture sequentially like scanning the sensor from top to bottom one raw at a time, it's very slow, can create image artifacts on slow moving subjects, that is why, the stopping of light capture is done by dropping the rear mechanical curtain. Fully electronic start and stop of image capture is possible for images completely static, and that's what is being implemented by Pixel Shift. It is always possible to use pixel shift in LV mode or OVF mode and only keep 1 out of 4 frames, it works.

**clackers** · 11-18-2018, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Yes, but why use the shutter at all when in ES mode?

You are in live view, the shutter is already open, the ES fires and then you are back to live view. Why cycle the shutter?

The mechanical shutter can do 1/6000s, the electronic readout from top to bottom is about 1/5s IIRC.

Gimbal · 11-18-2018, 02:22 PM

I did some tests and it turns out that pixel reset is not done on all pixels at the same time, there is a huge rolling shutter effect on first curtain when using ES.

And also there is the same rolling effect when closing the shutter, so the K1 use electronic shutter for closing curtain as well.
(Which makes sense, you better close the shutter with the same speed you opened it, or else the exposure will be uneven.)

So it seems the mechanical shutter cycles AFTER the picture is taken.

11-18-2018, 03:40 AM	#21
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by Gimbal Why cycle the shutter? Pixel reset is electronic, for all pixels at a time, which defines the start time of light capture. Stopping capture of light is not done electronically because doing so runs pixel capture sequentially like scanning the sensor from top to bottom one raw at a time, it's very slow, can create image artifacts on slow moving subjects, that is why, the stopping of light capture is done by dropping the rear mechanical curtain. Fully electronic start and stop of image capture is possible for images completely static, and that's what is being implemented by Pixel Shift. It is always possible to use pixel shift in LV mode or OVF mode and only keep 1 out of 4 frames, it works. Last edited by biz-engineer; 11-18-2018 at 03:46 AM.

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11-14-2018, 05:41 AM	#16
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by savoche If it had been a fully electronic shutter it wouldn't. But as far as I can see that's not how it is implemented with any "serious" camera. Only the "opening" of the shutter is electronic, while the closing is mechanical. (At least for normal shooting; it might be different for PS.) It IS different with PS, so the firmware already knows how to do it. But only when using PS.

11-14-2018, 06:37 PM	#17
BruceBanner Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 5,404 Original Poster	Originally posted by Rondec If you pixel shift, you get four shots in a row with ES enabled. But I wouldn't think having the shutter click after the shot would be a big deal either way. I imagine that the K-1 sequel will have a true silent mode where the shutter doesn't operate at all, but this was Pentax's early foray into the realm of electronic shutters. KP's ES mode is virtually silent, night and day difference to the K-1's ES sound. Originally posted by Pikselisiirto OVF is so much nicer for composition in most cases, so I just try to hold the camera still while looking, press LV and then shutter button. Pentax could automate this process, but they don't. Also full electronic shutter from the OVF is possible. Just shoot pixel shift and ditch 3 other frames. Pentax could automate this process, but they don't. Bracketing is slower with electronic shutter, but pixel shift is fast. There is probably differences between pixel shift ES and normal ES, but Pentax could give us a choice, but they don't. I noticed that K-1 card writer slots are not fast and the speed is shared. This will increase capture delay with timelapses with full quality and even more, if using two cards. Pentax could offer ES option for timelapse to maintain shutter durability, but they don't. Only possible option right now is to write a mobile app with Pentax SDK and make a script, but I haven't seen any. There also should be option to turn of the screen in LV because it is draining battery quite fast. K-1 could do more, but firmware has limitations. SDK release might indicate that they won't add more features through the firmware. That's a curious process that I would like to know more about. I mean, I just tried it now, but my LV mode has Face Detection set up (which actually works fantastically, eyes typically prioritised. I'm now wondering if I can use this tactic a little for certain shots, either have my LV mode set for the same spot point (centre or somewhere else), then frame the shot in OVF but don't rely on PDAF for the focus, then quickly press LV and then Focus and take the shot, because 9/10 the LV does a better focusing job Is this what you sometimes do?

11-17-2018, 03:39 AM - 1 Like	#18
Pikselisiirto Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 57	Originally posted by BruceBanner KP's ES mode is virtually silent, night and day difference to the K-1's ES sound. That's a curious process that I would like to know more about. I mean, I just tried it now, but my LV mode has Face Detection set up (which actually works fantastically, eyes typically prioritised. I'm now wondering if I can use this tactic a little for certain shots, either have my LV mode set for the same spot point (centre or somewhere else), then frame the shot in OVF but don't rely on PDAF for the focus, then quickly press LV and then Focus and take the shot, because 9/10 the LV does a better focusing job Is this what you sometimes do? I use ES to avoid shutter shock blur below 1/200s and it requires LV mode. Many photos are focused to the infinity and with contrast detection to avoid calibration issues, so I don't use focusing when doing hand-held composition through the OVF, holding camera still, pressing LV and then ES is used when pressing shutter button. PDAF focusing has been very rare for me unless trying to focus close on something which moves all the time. Calmer subjects focus fine with slower contrast detection or I just manually focus with peaking. Mostly this is done with a tripod, so pixel shift is used anyway. K-1 and DFA*50 can produce amazingly sharp photos without shutter shock and when pixel shift works well enough and careful focusing is used. Especially wide aperture isolation can look very natural. This all is quite narrow use of the camera, but it mainly fits to what I want to photograph and this is why I think that K-1 is excellent value. Luckily I can dodge most of the weak points of K-1, but it is not so convenient.

11-17-2018, 05:54 PM	#19
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Gimbal Except that the shutter seems to be cycled after every normal ES shot anyway. For unknown reasons. Only the first shutter action is electronic. The second terminates the exposure so shake doesn't land on the sensor.

11-18-2018, 03:26 AM	#20
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by clackers Only the first shutter action is electronic. The second terminates the exposure so shake doesn't land on the sensor. Yes, but why use the shutter at all when in ES mode? You are in live view, the shutter is already open, the ES fires and then you are back to live view. Why cycle the shutter? PS mode shows that the camera can take pictures without cycling the shutter.

11-18-2018, 04:33 AM	#22
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Gimbal Yes, but why use the shutter at all when in ES mode? You are in live view, the shutter is already open, the ES fires and then you are back to live view. Why cycle the shutter? The mechanical shutter can do 1/6000s, the electronic readout from top to bottom is about 1/5s IIRC.

11-18-2018, 02:22 PM	#23
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	I did some tests and it turns out that pixel reset is not done on all pixels at the same time, there is a huge rolling shutter effect on first curtain when using ES. And also there is the same rolling effect when closing the shutter, so the K1 use electronic shutter for closing curtain as well. (Which makes sense, you better close the shutter with the same speed you opened it, or else the exposure will be uneven.) So it seems the mechanical shutter cycles AFTER the picture is taken.