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03-22-2019, 11:14 AM   #46
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So I took my K-1, my FA31 and my FA77 and sat down shooting from 1/50 through 1/250 and I really can't se any shutter shock. Taking several series there are a few sample variations where some shots are less detailed than the rest but not at any specific shutter speed. I used f/4 and shot at close range.

Is there a focus distance part in the equation?

Here I have two of many portraits I have taken with the FA31 and FA77 at these shutter speeds...





03-22-2019, 11:36 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
So I took my K-1, my FA31 and my FA77 and sat down shooting from 1/50 through 1/250 and I really can't see any shutter shock. Taking several series there are a few sample variations where some shots are less detailed than the rest but not at any specific shutter speed. I used f/4 and shot at close range.

Is there a focus distance part in the equation?

Here I have two of many portraits I have taken with the FA31 and FA77 at these shutter speeds...
Nice portraits ...

I did not find any noticeable problem with the FA77 and the FA31 was the better of the three lenses I noticed the problem with. I think the problem is likely to be worse with the lighter lenses, not just plastic as the FA43 is metal. I'll retry the FA31 as it does not fit the light lens theory.

I was focusing at a similar distance to you, about 2.5 to 3.5m approx. Not sure this going to be an issue, looking at my field shots I took early with my FA43.

The effect is most noticeable with fine subjects, eg a feather where there's typically a fainter, ghosting image lying to the side of the real image.

Thanks for trying
03-22-2019, 01:18 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Here's a quick annotated example.
OK...I will spill it.

I looked real hard and also brought this example into an image editor and bumped contrast etc. and was unable to see convincing evidence of camera motion or doubling on the 1/100s side. If there is "doubling", it appears to be less than one pixel wide, though it is tough to say when not doing the comparison at full resolution. Yes, there is a difference between the two sides, but comparing two separate images at much reduced resolution, both of which appear to have had significant post processing, it is hard to ferret out whether the "nervous" softening on the left is due to camera motion, slight misfocus, or artifact generated by the differences in significant amount of PP applied to both images. (Yes, the right side is lighter than the left.)

This is not to say that there is no shutter shock present, only that I would not lean that direction if I saw such on my own images at this resolution. I would lean towards slight missed focus compounded by CA.*

This in mind, I considered how I might test this out and it occurred to me that the most damning evidence might come from short duration flash (mild fill) at the shutter speeds in question using a high contrast target. Fine detail would not be required, just a strong edge. Any ghosting should be obvious with severity bracketing strongly within a limited range of shutter speeds if shutter shock.

Just some ramblings.


Steve

* Both the FA 43 and FA 35 may exhibit lateral CA and/or longitudinal CA.
03-22-2019, 03:01 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
OK...I will spill it.

I looked real hard and also brought this example into an image editor and bumped contrast etc. and was unable to see convincing evidence of camera motion or doubling on the 1/100s side. If there is "doubling", it appears to be less than one pixel wide, though it is tough to say when not doing the comparison at full resolution. Yes, there is a difference between the two sides, but comparing two separate images at much reduced resolution, both of which appear to have had significant post processing, it is hard to ferret out whether the "nervous" softening on the left is due to camera motion, slight misfocus, or artifact generated by the differences in significant amount of PP applied to both images. (Yes, the right side is lighter than the left.)

This is not to say that there is no shutter shock present, only that I would not lean that direction if I saw such on my own images at this resolution. I would lean towards slight missed focus compounded by CA.*

This in mind, I considered how I might test this out and it occurred to me that the most damning evidence might come from short duration flash (mild fill) at the shutter speeds in question using a high contrast target. Fine detail would not be required, just a strong edge. Any ghosting should be obvious with severity bracketing strongly within a limited range of shutter speeds if shutter shock.

Just some ramblings.


Steve

* Both the FA 43 and FA 35 may exhibit lateral CA and/or longitudinal CA.
Steve there wasn't really much PP. Shot in RAW I lifted the exposure slightly as the shots were slightly underexposed. There was a slight lift in contrast and clarity. No sharpening in ACR or PS. That's all. I vignetted to draw the attention.

07-22-2019, 08:34 AM   #50
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No news about that problem ?

A firmware update could be made to change ISO, when in Av mode, to have a shutter speed outside that range...
07-22-2019, 11:22 PM   #51
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I have heard ... and it was also my experience ... that K-1's IS system is sensitive at times 1/100. Simply camera considers this time as "safe", but there is some softness at pictures. I would shorten the time to be safe ...
07-23-2019, 01:15 AM   #52
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I have plenty of small primes which are my primary lenses to use. I have noticed shutter shock, but haven't fully tested the limits yet. Currently I'm taking it safe and shoot 1/250 or faster and try to stay in ISO100-800 area. If that's not enough, I try to have tripod at hand and use ES with remote.

I know one can work around shutter shock, but I wish I didn't have to. If they manage to solve it in future, it very likely is reason enough for me to upgrade.
07-23-2019, 02:19 AM   #53
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I think the solution is to use TAv mode or the electronic shutter.

When I am shooting landscapes, I use the ES almost exclusively, at least when on a tripod.

07-23-2019, 03:54 AM   #54
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My K-1 with DFA*50 produce shutter shock blur from 1/200s - 1/320s and slower. It is worst at 1/160s and slower. I cannot use IBIS because it would be pointless to use DFA*50 then. Guaranteed maximum sharpness basically means that electronic shutter must be used when going below 1/400s. Pentax included single shot ES, but it does not work with the optical viewfinder. My solution is to use hand-held pixel shift and pick one photo later on. It is impossible to check those photos on the field, so first I shoot one photo and then try to do identical composition with pixel shift. It is unfortunate that all this crap has to be done to get maximum performance with all shutter speeds. Pentax could help a bit by giving optical viewfinder for single shot ES and allow to select custom shutter speed range for ES and mechanical shutter.
07-23-2019, 07:24 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pikselisiirto Quote
My K-1 with DFA*50 produce shutter shock blur from 1/200s - 1/320s and slower. It is worst at 1/160s and slower. I cannot use IBIS because it would be pointless to use DFA*50 then. Guaranteed maximum sharpness basically means that electronic shutter must be used when going below 1/400s. Pentax included single shot ES, but it does not work with the optical viewfinder. My solution is to use hand-held pixel shift and pick one photo later on. It is impossible to check those photos on the field, so first I shoot one photo and then try to do identical composition with pixel shift. It is unfortunate that all this crap has to be done to get maximum performance with all shutter speeds. Pentax could help a bit by giving optical viewfinder for single shot ES and allow to select custom shutter speed range for ES and mechanical shutter.
How could the optical viewfinder ever work with the electronic shutter? For optical viewfinder to work the mirror has to be down. When the mirror is down it is diverting light away from the shutter and sensor.
Thanks,
barondla
07-24-2019, 01:19 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
How could the optical viewfinder ever work with the electronic shutter?

I believe the KP has the option. The first curtain is already open. When you press the shutter button the mirror flips up, and the ES starts the exposure then the second curtain ends it. It means you can avoid shutter shock/ mirror slap issues but still use the OVF.

---------- Post added 07-24-19 at 09:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by iheiramo Quote
I know one can work around shutter shock, but I wish I didn't have to. If they manage to solve it in future
The camera industry have had over 50 years to eliminate shutter shock. They have not managed it yet !
07-24-2019, 01:36 AM - 1 Like   #57
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...

"The camera industry have had over 50 years to eliminate shutter shock. They have not managed it yet !"

Yes and No! In film era current shutter shocks would not be noticeable. But nowadays with highresolution sensors .... ?
07-24-2019, 03:20 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by cport Quote
"The camera industry have had over 50 years to eliminate shutter shock. They have not managed it yet !"

Yes and No! In film era current shutter shocks would not be noticeable. But nowadays with highresolution sensors .... ?
This of course is the issue. 1.6 pixels of blur on a 36 megapixel image might be noticable today, but unlikely to be in the film era.

For what its worth, I don't have a lot of issues with this. I use ES when on a tripod and hand held, I haven't had problems, even when in the danger shutter speed range.
07-24-2019, 03:43 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For what its worth, I don't have a lot of issues with this. I use ES when on a tripod and hand held, I haven't had problems, even when in the danger shutter speed range.
I find I get shutter shock only when using a big (footed) lens on a tripod (within the 1/30-1/200 range). Not noticed it with any lens handheld.

For static scenes with a tripod I too use ES in LV.
07-24-2019, 06:32 AM - 2 Likes   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by cport Quote
"The camera industry have had over 50 years to eliminate shutter shock. They have not managed it yet !"

Yes and No! In film era current shutter shocks would not be noticeable. But nowadays with highresolution sensors .... ?
Exactly!

It's also worth noting that in the last 50 years, the flash sync speed of shutters has gone from 1/60 to 1/200 or faster. A wee bit'o physics can show that faster shutters mean much much higher shutter shock -- 3X the sync speed creates 9X the shock.

Creating a shutter with a controllable curtain speed would let the photographer use a slow sync speed with much lower shock levels under conditions where shutter shock might be a problem. It may even be possible for the camera to analyze its internal accelerometer data and provide a "shutter-shock alert" after the picture so the photographer knows to inspect the image; switch to slow-sync mode or better secure the camera and lens; and retake the shot.
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