Shutter shock with small primes

**BarryE** · 03-20-2019, 12:16 PM - **1 Like**

The following can as a surprise to me. Yes I'd known about the reports of shutter shock, but I'd not experienced it, owing to the way I normally work, ie tripod/MUP/remote etc.

I have been unimpressed by my new FA43's performance for a while. I bought it as a walkabout lens for a K-1. Earlier this week I set out for a shoot having decided to set the camera up using handheld,TAV, f5.6 & 1/100 for the whole shoot - just as an exercise. Getting home the images were all soft. Which made my wonder about shutter stock, and sure enough it's completely clear that I have a problem if I want to use this lens this way.

First off I don't like LV (and therefore ES), preferring to compose using OVF. I also appreciate this mechanical issue exists in many other cameras across different brands, so I'm NOT attacking Pentax - I am just rather surprised how obvious the problem was with the lenses below.

So here's what I found from multiple tests, using two K-1 s, and using a variety of hand-held techniques/positions. On all of the following lenses I repeated the tests using my normal tripod/MUP/remote set-up as a base - it was completely consistent -no instances of shutter stock were experienced using the tripod.

FA43 - the shutter shock is very noticeable between 1/80 and 1/200, with and without shake reduction. It was the worse lens I tested.
FA35 f2 - the shutter shock is very noticeable between 1/80 and 1/160, with and without shake reduction.
FA31 f1.8 - the shutter shock is noticeable between 1/80 and 1/160, with and without shake reduction.
FA77 - the shutter shock was there in this same range, but greatly reduced.

I also tested using a monopod with shake reduction on - the shutter shock was there, but not anyway near as pronounced.

So both K-1s with these lenses are being spoilt (I need to define 'spoilt' - for me, as I sell images up to A1 size, the blurring in this shutter range would render these images unusable. For smaller viewing sizes, there would be no problem).

Unfortunately, this shutter range (between 1/80 and 1/160) is a range that I naturally drop into when on walkabout, due to light, subject matter etc. For most of my needs a tripod or monopod is always going to be my default, so I'm not that bothered. However, as this exercise started off as an experiment to force me into a different way of working it has failed from the start, which is disappointing.

It does make me wonder what of my other lenses are likely to be 'spoilt' by shutter shock ... Guess I need to check.

I wonder if some folk's opinion of the FA43 is linked to this noticeable problem...? The lens on a tripod is great, in the centre. Yes it's a little weak at the edges, but handheld in the above range, it's hopeless, for me.

These results were very revealing and it may well explain some soft images that I've experienced in the past, but not actually realised what was causing the problem. The idea of finding a subject, composing, taking an exposure reading only to find out I'm in the shock range will be limiting. Thank goodness it does not show up using a tripod/monopod. I will adapt/learn ...

pschlute · 03-20-2019, 12:39 PM

So are you saying that for the FA 43 with a shutter speed below 1/80 or above 1/200 you experience no shutter shock at all handheld ?

i have experienced shutter shock with the K-1 but only when using a tripod, and this is important only with a long lens with a foot. The range is 1/60-1/200.

There have been reports of SS handheld but this mostly seems to affect the 28-105 lens.

Is your camera within warranty ?

**BarryE** · 03-20-2019, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by pschlute

So are you saying that for the FA 43 with a shutter speed below 1/80 or above 1/200 you experience no shutter shock at all handheld ?

i have experienced shutter shock with the K-1 but only when using a tripod, and this is important only with a long lens with a foot. The range is 1/60-1/200.

There have been reports of SS handheld but this mostly seems to affect the 28-105 lens.

Is your camera within warranty ?

Two K-1s used so it is consistent. I'm not thinking warranty as I need the cameras for their normal (ie tripod) use. I think it is unlikely to be a warranty problem as both cameras showed almost identical results.

The shutter speeds where the problem is noticeable is slower than 1/200 and faster than 1/80. At 1/60 both cameras where sharpening up.

The results were very clear and consistent.

**kiwi_jono** · 03-20-2019, 12:58 PM

Firstly, apparently SS varies from one copy of a camera to another. So you might find one of your bodies is better than the other?
I will have a FA 43 in a few days time and will check, but I have seen shutter shock in that range with my FA35f2 (and to lesser extent FA50). Its doesn't have a big impact but then if I were printing at A1 then it would probably be noticeable.
My DFA28-105 can also show SS but its not as bad as the FA35 for me.
Have not noticed it so much with my FA31 but will do some tests in the weekend.
I have also seen it happen on a tripod (with SR off) - and changing to ES consistently clears it up. So now I always use LV with ES on when working with tripod. When shooting handheld I try to avoid that shutter range (sometimes upping ISO when needed as the K-1 performs well) but more often than not I get tied up in the moment and forget. Fortunately its not a big issue for me as I don't necessarily need pixel level sharpness (I would have been happy with 24MP FF camera) but absolutely can see why you are more concerned.

pschlute · 03-20-2019, 01:00 PM

Yes , shutter shock wont show up out of that range even if the mechanics causing it are still there.

As I said, a number of users have reported it with the 28-105, and very few without it. This is hand-held I am talking about.

Perhaps you can post some full size images to demonstrate, hand-held/and tripod so a comparison can be made.

**BigMackCam** · 03-20-2019, 01:00 PM

I don't have the K-1 or FA43. I have, however, experienced shutter shock on my K-3 with a couple of different lenses. Sadly, it's a fact of life with most DSLRs and even mirrorless cameras. EFCS can be extremely helpful, but of course with a DSLR that forces you into using Live View rather than the OVF.

I'm sure you're familiar with shutter shock generally, but you might still find the following article interesting. Some of it is specific to Nikon cameras, but it remains relevant:

What is Shutter Shock and How to Mitigate It

cport · 03-20-2019, 01:16 PM

... just maybe. The effect could be caused by the stabilization system. Times around 1/100 could be critical for the system stabilizing such a big sensor. The way how to check this would be to take pictures at those times in another shooting mode.

But I am also convinced that this effect exists, I did have similar experience ...

**BarryE** · 03-20-2019, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by cport

... just maybe. The effect could be caused by the stabilization system. Times around 1/100 could be critical for the system stabilizing such a big sensor. The way how to check this would be to take pictures at those times in another shooting mode.

But I am also convinced that this effect exists, I did have similar experience ...

The problem shows up with and without the shake reduction being on. The worse shutter speed is indeed 1/100 - trust me to choose that speed to go with for my experiment. Guess better to know the problem ...

---------- Post added 03-20-19 at 08:24 PM ----------

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I don't have the K-1 or FA43. I have, however, experienced shutter shock on my K-3 with a couple of different lenses. Sadly, it's a fact of life with most DSLRs and even mirrorless cameras. EFCS can be extremely helpful, but of course with a DSLR that forces you into using Live View rather than the OVF.

I'm sure you're familiar with shutter shock generally, but you might still find the following article interesting. Some of it is specific to Nikon cameras, but it remains relevant:

What is Shutter Shock and How to Mitigate It

Thanks Mike. I had in fact come across this a while back. I'll take another look ...

HarisF1 · 03-20-2019, 02:01 PM

I've experienced shutter shock with a few lenses on both my K-3 and current K-1. The D-FA 28-105 is susceptible to it, as mentioned, but so is the FA 20-35. It's actually really bad!!

My solution is to bump up the ISO or work at a lower speed with greater f-number.

biz-engineer · 03-20-2019, 02:02 PM

Most of the blur comes from the kinetic energy of the mirror motion translate in motion of camera body+lens. The smaller the lens, the more motion of the camera body. SR enabled greatly reduce the camera shake from mirror kick (the kick that you feel in your hand after you press the shutter if you pay attention). To eliminate completely the blur that would be induced by shutter while still using the OVF, I use 2 sec timer (I'd prefer to have 0.5s timer for this purpose) with pixel shift in RAW (hand held) and disable PS for RAW development (takes the first frame only), so it's like having ES used when shooting via OVF.

**ehrwien** · 03-20-2019, 02:21 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BarryE

The problem shows up with and without the shake reduction being on.

I'm not sure, does the K1 also have the option of the anti-aliasing filter simulation which uses the sensor stabilisation unit? If so, is it off as well?

**BarryE** · 03-20-2019, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by ehrwien

I'm not sure, does the K1 also have the option of the anti-aliasing filter simulation which uses the sensor stabilisation unit? If so, is it off as well?

The AA simulator is off.

**darylk** · 03-20-2019, 02:32 PM

I used to shoot in Av mode nearly all the time. After noticing softness due to shutter shock using my FA 28-105, I've adopted shooting in TAv, typically keeping shutter set to 1/320 or faster. Huge improvement! If ISO starts to creep up beyond my preference, I either adjust EV increasingly negative, or switch mode to M and underexpose by a stop or two (or more) taking advantage of the sensor's wide dynamic range at lower ISOs. Then pull up in post with very good sharp results.
My two cents...
Daryl

pschlute · 03-20-2019, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Most of the blur comes from the kinetic energy of the mirror motion translate in motion of camera body+lens

Academic I know, but my testing of the shake problem found it to be shutter induced, not mirror. Using the MLU option had zero effect on the shake.

As I only see it with a long footed lens on a tripod, my answer is to use ES when i can on a tripod

Ole · 03-20-2019, 02:34 PM

Welcome to the club. I've switched to TAv mode so that I can keep the speed at or above 1/250s, or at or below 1/60s no matter the lens. It is more cumbersome than Av, which used to be my favorite, but there is no way around it. Live view and electronic shutter is not a solution due to the "rolling shutter effect" unless you use a tripod and the subject is rather static.

In my experience shutter shock is visible wit and with out SR, and with or without a tripod.

Other brands share this "feature" with the K-1 - it isn't a Pentax-only problem. I've made suggestions to RICOH representatives in person about some workarounds that could be done in firmware, but I've had no reaction so far.

03-20-2019, 12:16 PM - 1 Like	#1
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653	Shutter shock with small primes The following can as a surprise to me. Yes I'd known about the reports of shutter shock, but I'd not experienced it, owing to the way I normally work, ie tripod/MUP/remote etc. I have been unimpressed by my new FA43's performance for a while. I bought it as a walkabout lens for a K-1. Earlier this week I set out for a shoot having decided to set the camera up using handheld,TAV, f5.6 & 1/100 for the whole shoot - just as an exercise. Getting home the images were all soft. Which made my wonder about shutter stock, and sure enough it's completely clear that I have a problem if I want to use this lens this way. First off I don't like LV (and therefore ES), preferring to compose using OVF. I also appreciate this mechanical issue exists in many other cameras across different brands, so I'm NOT attacking Pentax - I am just rather surprised how obvious the problem was with the lenses below. So here's what I found from multiple tests, using two K-1 s, and using a variety of hand-held techniques/positions. On all of the following lenses I repeated the tests using my normal tripod/MUP/remote set-up as a base - it was completely consistent -no instances of shutter stock were experienced using the tripod. FA43 - the shutter shock is very noticeable between 1/80 and 1/200, with and without shake reduction. It was the worse lens I tested. FA35 f2 - the shutter shock is very noticeable between 1/80 and 1/160, with and without shake reduction. FA31 f1.8 - the shutter shock is noticeable between 1/80 and 1/160, with and without shake reduction. FA77 - the shutter shock was there in this same range, but greatly reduced. I also tested using a monopod with shake reduction on - the shutter shock was there, but not anyway near as pronounced. So both K-1s with these lenses are being spoilt (I need to define 'spoilt' - for me, as I sell images up to A1 size, the blurring in this shutter range would render these images unusable. For smaller viewing sizes, there would be no problem). Unfortunately, this shutter range (between 1/80 and 1/160) is a range that I naturally drop into when on walkabout, due to light, subject matter etc. For most of my needs a tripod or monopod is always going to be my default, so I'm not that bothered. However, as this exercise started off as an experiment to force me into a different way of working it has failed from the start, which is disappointing. It does make me wonder what of my other lenses are likely to be 'spoilt' by shutter shock ... Guess I need to check. I wonder if some folk's opinion of the FA43 is linked to this noticeable problem...? The lens on a tripod is great, in the centre. Yes it's a little weak at the edges, but handheld in the above range, it's hopeless, for me. These results were very revealing and it may well explain some soft images that I've experienced in the past, but not actually realised what was causing the problem. The idea of finding a subject, composing, taking an exposure reading only to find out I'm in the shock range will be limiting. Thank goodness it does not show up using a tripod/monopod. I will adapt/learn ...

03-20-2019, 01:16 PM	#7
cport Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 428	maybe ... ... just maybe. The effect could be caused by the stabilization system. Times around 1/100 could be critical for the system stabilizing such a big sensor. The way how to check this would be to take pictures at those times in another shooting mode. But I am also convinced that this effect exists, I did have similar experience ...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Carbon Fiber Tripods and shutter shock	DSLRnovice	Pentax Camera and Field Accessories	19	02-23-2019 10:41 PM
Shutter shock blurring	Pikselisiirto	Pentax K-1 & K-1 II	13	10-02-2018 07:29 AM
live view and shutter shock	johnkrumm	Pentax K-1 & K-1 II	6	12-16-2017 01:05 AM
K-1 + DFA 28-105 mirror slap / shutter shock etc	awscreo	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	20	05-25-2017 09:23 PM
(The Big shock) CANON 7D - NIKON D300S & PENTAX K-x ISO PERFORMANCE (The Big shock)	starscream	Pentax DSLR Discussion	21	01-14-2010 05:17 AM

03-20-2019, 12:39 PM	#2
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,202	So are you saying that for the FA 43 with a shutter speed below 1/80 or above 1/200 you experience no shutter shock at all handheld ? i have experienced shutter shock with the K-1 but only when using a tripod, and this is important only with a long lens with a foot. The range is 1/60-1/200. There have been reports of SS handheld but this mostly seems to affect the 28-105 lens. Is your camera within warranty ?

03-20-2019, 12:54 PM	#3
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653 Original Poster	Originally posted by pschlute So are you saying that for the FA 43 with a shutter speed below 1/80 or above 1/200 you experience no shutter shock at all handheld ? i have experienced shutter shock with the K-1 but only when using a tripod, and this is important only with a long lens with a foot. The range is 1/60-1/200. There have been reports of SS handheld but this mostly seems to affect the 28-105 lens. Is your camera within warranty ? Two K-1s used so it is consistent. I'm not thinking warranty as I need the cameras for their normal (ie tripod) use. I think it is unlikely to be a warranty problem as both cameras showed almost identical results. The shutter speeds where the problem is noticeable is slower than 1/200 and faster than 1/80. At 1/60 both cameras where sharpening up. The results were very clear and consistent.

03-20-2019, 12:58 PM	#4
kiwi_jono Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,437	Firstly, apparently SS varies from one copy of a camera to another. So you might find one of your bodies is better than the other? I will have a FA 43 in a few days time and will check, but I have seen shutter shock in that range with my FA35f2 (and to lesser extent FA50). Its doesn't have a big impact but then if I were printing at A1 then it would probably be noticeable. My DFA28-105 can also show SS but its not as bad as the FA35 for me. Have not noticed it so much with my FA31 but will do some tests in the weekend. I have also seen it happen on a tripod (with SR off) - and changing to ES consistently clears it up. So now I always use LV with ES on when working with tripod. When shooting handheld I try to avoid that shutter range (sometimes upping ISO when needed as the K-1 performs well) but more often than not I get tied up in the moment and forget. Fortunately its not a big issue for me as I don't necessarily need pixel level sharpness (I would have been happy with 24MP FF camera) but absolutely can see why you are more concerned.

03-20-2019, 01:00 PM	#5
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,202	Yes , shutter shock wont show up out of that range even if the mechanics causing it are still there. As I said, a number of users have reported it with the 28-105, and very few without it. This is hand-held I am talking about. Perhaps you can post some full size images to demonstrate, hand-held/and tripod so a comparison can be made.

03-20-2019, 01:00 PM	#6
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	I don't have the K-1 or FA43. I have, however, experienced shutter shock on my K-3 with a couple of different lenses. Sadly, it's a fact of life with most DSLRs and even mirrorless cameras. EFCS can be extremely helpful, but of course with a DSLR that forces you into using Live View rather than the OVF. I'm sure you're familiar with shutter shock generally, but you might still find the following article interesting. Some of it is specific to Nikon cameras, but it remains relevant: What is Shutter Shock and How to Mitigate It

03-20-2019, 01:22 PM	#8
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653 Original Poster	Originally posted by cport ... just maybe. The effect could be caused by the stabilization system. Times around 1/100 could be critical for the system stabilizing such a big sensor. The way how to check this would be to take pictures at those times in another shooting mode. But I am also convinced that this effect exists, I did have similar experience ... The problem shows up with and without the shake reduction being on. The worse shutter speed is indeed 1/100 - trust me to choose that speed to go with for my experiment. Guess better to know the problem ... ---------- Post added 03-20-19 at 08:24 PM ---------- Originally posted by BigMackCam I don't have the K-1 or FA43. I have, however, experienced shutter shock on my K-3 with a couple of different lenses. Sadly, it's a fact of life with most DSLRs and even mirrorless cameras. EFCS can be extremely helpful, but of course with a DSLR that forces you into using Live View rather than the OVF. I'm sure you're familiar with shutter shock generally, but you might still find the following article interesting. Some of it is specific to Nikon cameras, but it remains relevant: What is Shutter Shock and How to Mitigate It Thanks Mike. I had in fact come across this a while back. I'll take another look ...

03-20-2019, 02:01 PM	#9
HarisF1 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 543	I've experienced shutter shock with a few lenses on both my K-3 and current K-1. The D-FA 28-105 is susceptible to it, as mentioned, but so is the FA 20-35. It's actually really bad!! My solution is to bump up the ISO or work at a lower speed with greater f-number.

03-20-2019, 02:02 PM	#10
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Most of the blur comes from the kinetic energy of the mirror motion translate in motion of camera body+lens. The smaller the lens, the more motion of the camera body. SR enabled greatly reduce the camera shake from mirror kick (the kick that you feel in your hand after you press the shutter if you pay attention). To eliminate completely the blur that would be induced by shutter while still using the OVF, I use 2 sec timer (I'd prefer to have 0.5s timer for this purpose) with pixel shift in RAW (hand held) and disable PS for RAW development (takes the first frame only), so it's like having ES used when shooting via OVF.

03-20-2019, 02:21 PM - 1 Like	#11
ehrwien Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 2,782	Originally posted by BarryE The problem shows up with and without the shake reduction being on. I'm not sure, does the K1 also have the option of the anti-aliasing filter simulation which uses the sensor stabilisation unit? If so, is it off as well?

03-20-2019, 02:29 PM	#12
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653 Original Poster	Originally posted by ehrwien I'm not sure, does the K1 also have the option of the anti-aliasing filter simulation which uses the sensor stabilisation unit? If so, is it off as well? The AA simulator is off.

03-20-2019, 02:32 PM	#13
darylk Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Blue Hill, Nebraska Photos: Gallery Posts: 494	I used to shoot in Av mode nearly all the time. After noticing softness due to shutter shock using my FA 28-105, I've adopted shooting in TAv, typically keeping shutter set to 1/320 or faster. Huge improvement! If ISO starts to creep up beyond my preference, I either adjust EV increasingly negative, or switch mode to M and underexpose by a stop or two (or more) taking advantage of the sensor's wide dynamic range at lower ISOs. Then pull up in post with very good sharp results. My two cents... Daryl

03-20-2019, 02:32 PM	#14
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,202	Originally posted by biz-engineer Most of the blur comes from the kinetic energy of the mirror motion translate in motion of camera body+lens Academic I know, but my testing of the shake problem found it to be shutter induced, not mirror. Using the MLU option had zero effect on the shake. As I only see it with a long footed lens on a tripod, my answer is to use ES when i can on a tripod

03-20-2019, 02:34 PM	#15
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	Welcome to the club. I've switched to TAv mode so that I can keep the speed at or above 1/250s, or at or below 1/60s no matter the lens. It is more cumbersome than Av, which used to be my favorite, but there is no way around it. Live view and electronic shutter is not a solution due to the "rolling shutter effect" unless you use a tripod and the subject is rather static. In my experience shutter shock is visible wit and with out SR, and with or without a tripod. Other brands share this "feature" with the K-1 - it isn't a Pentax-only problem. I've made suggestions to RICOH representatives in person about some workarounds that could be done in firmware, but I've had no reaction so far.